Infinite Dawn is still a terrible dungeon for M+

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
42

I don’t know if you meant to use QA here, but nothing about any of this would fall under the purview of QA, at all. There wouldn’t even need to be a reason for any dev to spend time on these so-called “considerations” because they aren’t really considerations for what Enemy Percentage is there for in the first place.

I mean, I have no idea what your design experience is, but this is just not how design works. There’s absolutely a distinction between whether users or customers have a legitimate annoyance with a thing, and whether they’re just making up their own problem. That’s part of why design principles exist.

Moreover, if you’re going to get into claims like something being “brought up ad nauseum”, or “people arguing”, or “many people feeling that makes X a waste of time”, that’s already enough to raise eyebrows, because WHO. How many is this supposed “many people”? Are you the only one arguing about this? Is it a thing for 12 people on this forum? Hundreds? Thousands across forums and discords and in-game and whatever? 1% of the M+ playerbase? 10%? 25%? Are half the M+ playerbase feeling disgruntled about this? Which number you land on (and how you’re even remotely attempting to land on this would interest me) is kinda revelant too.

The idea of spending dev time, hours of effort across the various teams and personnel who might touch a change, and however much that change costs, would need to be weighted against that. No one’s going to be spending time and money to satisfy 5 people on a forum. Not to mention the actual downsides and impacts of making such a change, and how it would alter the approaches available to certain other players.

From all appearances, this isn’t some pervasive topic that is dominating Discords and Guild Chats and Forums. About the only person I definitively know who’s bothered by this is you. And given the design has an explicit purpose that we know about, and is happily satisfying said design, the idea that it’s poorly designed because you said so is … silly. Even if you found evidence that a hundred or so people agree, that still does not constitute a design flaw. I guess maybe you could argue that Blizzard could communicate their intent with Enemy Percentage better to newer players who have not been around all this time, and therefore might be ignorant to its history, and dungeon design in WoW, but that’s not a design problem, and more just a factor of how time operates.

43

It’s the worst instance Blizzard has ever made.

2 Likes
44

OH FFS, you can make those claims about ANYTHING that is brought up in the forums.

My issue with your debate style was that we’re not talking about something that is hard-set in stone right or wrong. BLizz makes changes to dungeons relatively often with “tuning notes” they do every other week or so. I dont really find it engaging when a person wants to make things on here all about who is right or who is wrong. That isn’t what I’m saying. There is another thread I started but seems to have been buried asking the quesiton … “Does DOTI have too much trash?” The responses seemed to be pretty spilt down the middle.

Most groups will do either one of the skips I mentioned in Fall because they PERCEIVE pulls over 100% to be a waste of time. Now whether or not that “waste of time” is “True” or “untrue” is debateable. I am of the mind that if you MUST have a rogue or invisbility pots to pull near the 100% marker, then there is either too much trash OR the percentages need to be adjusted. I admit to having a large bias over the latter being their method of “solving” this–esp. given that both Fall and Rise have gauntlets that waste a lot of time.

Now as far as those skips to avoid pulling more than 100%?

I’d argue that on Tyr weeks, it doesn’t matter.

On Fort weeks, it def. can matter as much of that trash has “teleport to random player and whirlwind them for all of their HP” (kinda like Everbloom this week) BS and affixes like bolstering just make that a giant PITA

2 Likes
45

I don’t know if you’re ignorant to the words you yourself are saying, but this isn’t about “debate style”. There’s nothing to debate. The enemy contributions checklist in dungeons has a specific purpose that both Blizzard and us have discussed before in the past, and seems to be clearly achieving said purpose. You may not have known that before, but it has now been explained to you, and we’ve gone through the other considerations which need to exist for the amount of trash to be a problem. And of course, we’ve gone to length to look objectively and quantifiably at different scenarios.

Again, I’m not sure if you are just ignorant to the words you’re saying. You ARE in fact suggesting that what is currently live is “wrong”. That’s what words like “poorly designed” or invoking QA are doing. If you were doing otherwise, you would simply be grounding in whether or not you prefer something a certain way.

And OK sure, you made another thread I guess. And what does “pretty split down the middle” mean? Did you get 10 replies? 100? 1000’s of potential data points? That kinda informs whether this other thread is even worth bringing up into any convo. Also, are you interpreting words someone has said to fall in either camp, or are they clearly saying “Yes, DoTI has too much trash”?

I mean, how exactly do you know that most groups are doing this? Have you polled them? (For the record, I don’t actually doubt whether this is true, but I’m trying to make the point that you can’t just assume so because you feel like it) Dug through WCL’s and videos? Have they told you that that is explicitly their purpose of doing so? Even in dungeons where it may not be absolutely necessary by design (e.g. the timer is extremely lenient), people CAN put themselves into situations where they are needing the time saved (e.g. they wiped, or dps was running lower than expected).

And of course, Rogues’ Shroud is a specific part of their utility that they bring to M+. For that matter, so are Invis Pots for everyone as a profession-based ability. They’re meant to be limited in how much they get used, but they’re certainly not meant to be useless. This was an issue in the past specifically because Shroud or invis had to be part of strats that enabled people to even make certain timers, and were an overwhelming consideration. To the point that Blizzard tried to soften this with a seasonal affix that essentially let every group do 3 skips as they chose. That situation was an ACTUAL design problem.

Even if Shroud/Invis are a good idea for these pulls, even you’ve flat out said that groups can opt to kill these groups, and be comfortable on the timer.

46

Darielle

I AM questioning right or wrong when it comes to the feel of the design OF the dungeon. Yes, I think the count being what it is in Fall is “wrong.” Fine, there I said it. Happy now?

What I’m NOT questioning is whether or not YOU personally are specifically wrong or right about your point of view. I’m also not debating with you in a way that is incredibly
condescending and off-putting but you definitely are and you need to reel it in a bit.

I KNOW what trash percent is supposed to mean and I know what the reason for the percent count is. The thing is with there being a timer and infintely scaling mob dificulty,- there are a myriad of strats that one will want to take to ensure that JUST ENOUGH of the trash + the bosses are killed. This is the most efficient way to clear a key. Surely you know that, and surely there really shouldn’t be a debate about this as it’s just a fact. The most effidient pull strategy is more often that not, KING in keys.

Unless you shroud or invisipot two very high-mob-dense areas, you’re going to be at nearly 130-140%. That is what I’m criticizing. Adjusting the percent to keep the pull count the same is most likely what they’re going to do (Even though I think that’s ridiculously lazy)–i’d rather see them bust up some of the mob density or reduce the amount of trash before Iridikron.

There, I said that without putting you down and implying that you’re a moron for disagreeing with me. See how easy that was?

6 Likes
47

Trash needs to be less cancer with percentage adjustments and trash pack removals.

They obviously shifted M+ trash percentage to be less about skips and more about straight paths, so the dungeon should reflect that.

48

The chromie adds that spawn on top of you?

49

Yes, that mechanic.

50

Fall is lame but tolerable. Rise is pure garbage, awful in every way. Why is blizzard making such bad content? It has to be on purpose, since they keep making these miserable dungeons.

51

Rise and Throne are good timer wise.

What’s wrong with Rise anyway?

The speed gauntlet is also fun.

52

No the gauntlet is not fun. Its basically the exact opposite of what i want in timed content. The piss on the floor room is also tedious and boring. There are completely empty areas for some reason. Theres 30 sec of rp on first boss. The trash around first boss is boring and stupid. If i interrupt that sand mob, just remove the stupid sand. All of the bosses bore me. It looks like junk. Theres a dozen pointless portals for no reason, and no actual indicator to signify why youre taking a particular portal.

2 Likes
53

The trash around the first boss is good because I actually know what they do.

They make an impression.

It’s memorable.

Whereas compared to Everbloom - mobs just do “stuff.”

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54

Ya a bad and memorable expression just what i want from a key.

55

That is one hot take that feels like it sums up Aug:

“I don’t know what the mobs do, I’m just here for the carry.”

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56

I don’t remember but yea. Pretty sure i did

57

Fall is fine, but Rise is at least top 2 worst m+ dungeons ever. Everything about it is awful, wrong, stupid, lazy and bad.

2 Likes
58

Yeah, well…that’s just like your opinion man.

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59

also I’ve noticed on the gauntlet that my dwarf character actually flies off the steps and I lose control of it whereas on my panda here I do not.

Is that a known thing? Losing control of your character in there even for a second is kind of bad. makes the gauntlet extremely annoying instead of just mildly annoying and a waste of time.

1 Like
60

I legit hate this dungeon. The first room of Rise is soooo ridiculous. Pugs are wiping on first pulls because they have to be made for time. People don’t dodge. So many garbage people queuing into 25s without any apparent knowledge of what is needed.

Where the eff is dungeon tuning? This dungeon shouldn’t be this tight. Abilities aren’t telegraphed. You’ll just get insta-charged through and die. People are apparently blind to orb. like wtf. ugh. I hate this dungeon.

1 Like
61

The only thing I would change in Fall is reducing how hard the trash DoTs tick for. Even on a +20 they still tick for almost 150-200k every 1s and the DoT constantly jumps from one person to the next. On a +27 I can’t even do dps in that area I just have to pump single target heals into people. The rest of the dungeon is basically free once you’re past the 2nd boss.

Rise’s entire difficulty is that 1st platform area and the last pull. The 3 minibosses need like -20% hp nerfs and that last pull does giga AOE damage on fortified weeks. We also need a speed boost after killing bosses because you spend 7 minutes minimum just running around in that dungeon not fighting anything.

1 Like