Il'gynoth And A Cosmic Insurgency

[Teitan-destromath]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

I think the vassal is none other than Lady Moonberry.

@Frankenfiend-the-scryers

If Lady Moonberry were a Dreadlord’ though, that would be pretty interesting.

I don’t know, based on the last chapter from NF campaign, that could be almost impossible, but at least an exploit is revealed.

Winter Queen: Moonberry, Herne, Aliothe, Zayhad! Win back control of the grove’s anchors. Through our soulbond, I shall expel these intruders!

Some lines from soulbinding definition:

They know each other completely, and both simultaneously act as each other’s mentor and student… Souls who are bound together know each others’ pasts, hopes, fears, dreams, and memories; all is shared between them. Their connection transcends physical space: as long as the bond exists, the souls are always intertwined even when apart.

Ok, I know, Kyrestia used also “our” in a weird manner:

Kyrestia the Firstborne: Long have we believed that our mortal lives are burdens to be shed in the name of service. And yet, the deeds of mortals are what won the day.

But still, if Moonberry and the other three are souldbounded with the Winter Queen, then it is almost impossible for them to hide a scheme from her. But there’s the exploit I think, the queen also cannot hide something from them and if one of them is deceived or captured, then her/he can be exploited for information.

One of the reasons for Denathrius defeat by the hands of Maw Walkers is sharing his power with his court through these medallions, that seems to weakening him enough.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Teitan-destromath

But still, if Moonberry and the other three are souldbounded with the Winter Queen, then it is almost impossible for them to hide a scheme from her.

No because Lysonia and the Hand of Purity were soul binds and the Hand had zero idea Lysonia had sided with the Forsworn, so that’s not true.

It’s just dramatic flavor sadly.

Also what is up with all these alts why don’t yall post on main smh

[Teitan-destromath]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

No because Lysonia and the Hand of Purity were soul binds and the Hand had zero idea Lysonia had sided with the Forsworn, so that’s not true.

It’s just dramatic flavor sadly.

That’s fair. I forgot about this.

@Baalsamael-turalyon

Also what is up with all these alts why don’t yall post on main smh

I cannot post with my main because I’m an European playing on EU servers. Believe me, I tried, but it is not possible, the only workaround that I found is to create a starter account on US and leveling a character to 10.

[Frankenfiend-the-scryers]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

Also what is up with all these alts why don’t yall post on main smh

My disposition towards the story direction, other players, and Blizzard in general matches more closely with my Forsaken loyalist character than any of my other characters.

And I’m holding off on leveling him until I can figure out a suitable alternative for a Beast Mastery/survivalist Hunter than joining the Ardenweild covenant. Because no way would this guy want to do that.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

• I’ve had a pet theory for a while that Ilgynoth was a Dreadlord that grafted himself onto Nzoth. It’s weird that he has wings and looks almost like a gargoyle in his “true form” on Nyalotha.

Re: this, I remembered I made a post about it so

@Baalsamael-turalyon

Nah, I think it’s Ilgynoth.

1. The Dreadlords don’t mention an “operative” to the Void/Old Gods like they do with the Plane of Life, thus like Lothraxion and the Legion, was probably direct intervention
2. They “spread lies among their midst”, very similar to whispers
3. Ilgynoth is described as a “pustule”. Pustules (e.g. pimples) are minor infections due to an immune response overtaking a foreign invasion into the tissue.
4. Other than Kultiran Sirens and Dragons, Ilgynoth is the only being with wings allied to N’zoth
5. The general shape of Ilgynoth resembles a Dreadlord imo
6. It would explain why a lot of the Il’gynoth whispers almost want us to release the Jailer, as opposed to N’zoth’s whispers which warn against the Jailer

@Baalsamael-turalyon

I think the vassal is none other than Lady Moonberry. Again, will explain in the morning.

Re: this, I also made a post about it lol

@Baalsamael-turalyon

It’s Lady Moonberry

• she’s part of the Court of Night, the Winter Queen’s inner circle
• she isn’t a Droman (in charge of a Tirna Grove)
• she isn’t a Wild Hunt member (in charge of protecting the forest)
• she is in charge of the Theater, distracting everyone
• she has no role otherwise
• when we arrive in Ardenweald, she refuses to take us to the Winter Queen with the message of the Primus, forcing us to accompany her until eventually getting to Tirna Achiad the long way
• she’s the one who points out the Ysera Wild Seed
• she’s the one who convinces the Winter Queen to use what little personal Anima she has left to revive Ysera and bind her to Ardenweald, thus preventing her from ever reincarnating and returning to Azeroth, which weakens the Winter Queen even more, and reminder if the Winter Queen dies then the Maw’s lock opens
• This forces us to go to Revendreth, where Denathrius is
• Once Ysera is “awakened”, she begins hearing whispers and visions of where to find Tyrande and how to save the Night Elf souls, and the majority of the Fairies we encounter in Ardenweald have power over giving, shaping, and observing the dreams of the Wild Seeds
• She isn’t a Soulbind NPC

She’s the operative who gained the trust of “her target” for the Dreadlords in Ardenweald since it’s connected to the plane of Life.

Now regarding this:

@Baalsamael-turalyon

• I think Denathrius was originally a Dreadlord whose soul was turned into the Sire. I also think the Hooded Ones statue may actually be the Dreadlords because of this. I’m in bed so I’ll explain in the morning.

So in BC we were given the Dark Portal
https://i.imgur.com/SM8p2Ea.jpg

And in the concept art, we see the same statues around Torghast
https://i.imgur.com/3WoBTbp.jpg

Torghast we know was always in the Maw, and that the Maw was already “inescapable” when Zovaal was banished into it, so these Hooded Statues precede Zovaal.

However in Revendreth we see:

Hooded statues with a sword (like in the Dark Portal) but with geometric patterns similar to those found in Oribos and Bastion, but the Sword-Statues are only found in crypts.

https://i.imgur.com/XxXRenQ.png

Hooded Statues with no sword, arms crossed, throughout the zone but never in crypts and in particular found along the entrance and perimeter of Sinfall, where we found Enemy Infiltration in the “Spire of the Unseen Guests”

https://i.imgur.com/HBXaTY7.png

and then in Castle Nathria we have the entrance to Sire Denathrius’s room with Sire Denathrius (same horns, same circlet on the forehead) depicted as a Hooded One

https://i.imgur.com/vSvv0hl.png

https://i.imgur.com/BLzaHM0.png

So:

• Hooded Statues With Swords at both the Dark Portal, Revendreth Crypts, and the Sanguine Depths
• Hooded Statues With Arms Crossed at both Sinfall and Torghast
• Enemy Infiltration is found in Sinfall, which was Denathrius’ private lab, and is written how he speaks
• Sinfall connects with the Maw
• Sire Denathrius is depicted as a Hooded One in Castle Nathria

Therefore, speculation:

• There is something in the Maw that is sealed away via Torghast; I speculate there is a “Dark First One” in WoW

If the First Ones are (in Tolkien terms) Eru levels of power but a Valar-like pantheon, then there is likely a “First One” that created discord in the universe. Given Sargeras resembles a Balrog and Zovaal is very Sauron-esque, I think perhaps Denathrius is our Saruman.

• While Titans are made from World-Souls, I think the Eternals were made from a variety of other beings/souls and reshaped.

Kyrestia, as others have brought up, uses the pronoun “our” in “our mortal lives”. And we know all Valkyr/Kyrians are ascended mortals; Kyrestia is the Firstborne of the Winged Kyrians. Denathrius likewise Sired all the Venthyr yes, but he is called the First Blooded. Primus likewise means First. And the Winter Queen is inherently tied to the Plane of Life and each world-specific “bubble” of it (Emerald Dream, etc).

Denathrius was thus originally a Dreadlord (servant of WoW-Morgoth) and was turned into Denathrius well before WoW-Morgoth was banished.

That is, my hypothetical timeline is thus:

1. First Ones create existence. Each First One has one central cosmic power, 4 periphery powers, but excludes one cosmic power.
2. First Ones create each Pantheon; different First Ones create different members of each Pantheon, sometimes in collaboration. They also create beings specific to each Cosmic Force. So “Elune” creates both Winter Queen and Eonar, “Dark First One” creates Sargeras and Zovaal and Primus and Denathrius. “Solar First One” (An’she?) and Elune in collaboration create the Naaru.
3. Dark First One betrays the others, and gets banished from existence. In Tolkien terms, “Beyond the Door of Night”; this is perhaps the Maw, or the Sepulcher.
4. The will of the Dark First One is still exerted via the Dreadlords and his Pantheon Members (Denathrius, Detheroc, Zovaal, etc)
5. Primus and Aman’thul (as the Primus could, at one point, see timelines) work together; Zovaal is banished into the Maw to become the (new, secondary) Jailer.
6. Denathrius and his Dreadlord brothers make their plan: infiltrate Light (Lothraxion), Shadow (maybe Ilgynoth, maybe Xalatath), and Chaos (Detheroc) directly, get a servant of Ardenweald (Moonberry) to turn to their side to corrupt Life, corrupt a Titan (Sargeras) to defeat Order.
7. Sargeras defeats Aman’thul, thus Primus loses his ability to see Timelines. However Aman’thul flings his essence into his Keepers, of which Odyn is one.
8. Odyn trades his eye to Mueh’zala to see Bastion; Mueh’zala gives Odyn’s Amanthul-empowered eye to Zovaal.
9. Zovaal can now see Timelines whereas Primus can no longer see Timelines; Primus is defeated.
10. Zovaal extracts the Helm of Domination and Mourneblade techniques, which are probably failsafes to control Maldraxxus in case they got out of hand.
11. Zovaal simply wants to break out of the Maw; Denathrius and the Dreadlords want to release their true master, it all works out.
12. Zovaal convinces Cartel Ve to get the Helm and Frostmourne out of the Maw and into the hands of Detheroc; Venari does this, but then realizes what she has done, and betrays the others. Cartel Ve realizes also what has happened, and now want to kill her, as they’ll be blamed for the instability of the shadowlands and reality.
13. And the rest is history as we know it.

[Zarrín-zuljin]

Love this thread.

My interpretation is pretty similar to the OP:

Turalyon on the throne of Stormwind could lead to the zealous adherence to the Light we saw applied to Illidan in Legion and to the Mag’har in the Allied race quest. Spoiler alert - it isn’t good.

Cunning ones kneel before six but serve only one matches the lore item in question. The nathrezim are in all six realms but serve only Death.

1. Lothraxion in the light
2. Pick a dread lord in the twisting nether (they even mention using fel magic)
3. When Sargeras finds the corrupted Old God world he finds dreadlords living among (void) them.
4. When Sargeras interrogated them it led to him turning evil (order)
5. Someone in Life with green eyes.

Six mouths with one that will consume all seems to refer to six realms from the cosmological chart (order, twisting nether, light, void, death, life). I assume one will consume all is a reference to death.

I suggest that’s Death because in many Lores that involve an actual “Death” force/being/etc that being normally is portrayed as supreme in the sense that in the end, everything decays and dies and Death will claim them all. That usually doesn’t mean they can simply overpower other forces, but eventually will win.

I absolutely believe there are six “beings” that ordered the cosmos - Death, Life, Chaos, Order, Light, and Void.

I just don’t know how the situation in the Shadowlands fits in exactly.

The Jailer seems to require all of the other leaders to hold him back - that suggests he is more powerful than any one of them. The Maw seems to be the place where souls go for “final” death. The devs said the Jailer is akin to Titan++. Does that mean the Jailer IS Death, somehow imprisoned? That would suggest that the realm of Death turned on its creator - which seems unlikely (and imprisoning Death seems unlikely without the other cosmic powers intervening). If Death is imprisoned though, that would shift the balance in the cosmos, which seems bad.

Lacking being a “cosmic” power though, I can’t see how the Jailer poses a wide scale threat. It’s one thing to say the Jailer could wreck havoc in reality. It’s another thing entirely to suggest the Jailer could invade and conquer the other planes of existence. Maybe the Jailer himself imprisoned Death and we need to free it so it can get control of the Shadowlands to fix things?

Maybe the other cosmic forces imprisoned Death on Azeroth (there is mention of something on Azeroth) due to Death going rogue and trying to wipe everything out and the Jailer wants to free it. Again though this runs into the issue of an imbalance in the cosmos which would seem to be bad.

Typically when you see forces arrayed as they are in that cosmological chart, they are all competing and creating a balance. When one is pushed down, balance is skewed, and the Universe is threatened. That actually would suggest the counterbalance to Life is depressed and we need to help Death offset that encroachment.

I could envision some of that being true - the Arbiter rarely sends souls to the Maw so even in the realm of Death there is little true death. The scary thing though is if that’s true, we might have to fight back the forces of life at some point (and/or even help Death).

[Erriden-moon-guard]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

• The Dreadlords don’t mention an “operative” to the Void/Old Gods like they do with the Plane of Life, thus like Lothraxion and the Legion, was probably direct intervention
• They “spread lies among their midst”, very similar to whispers
• Ilgynoth is described as a “pustule”. Pustules (e.g. pimples) are minor infections due to an immune response overtaking a foreign invasion into the tissue.
• Other than Kultiran Sirens and Dragons, Ilgynoth is the only being with wings allied to N’zoth
• The general shape of Ilgynoth resembles a Dreadlord imo
• It would explain why a lot of the Il’gynoth whispers almost want us to release the Jailer, as opposed to N’zoth’s whispers which warn against the Jailer

Eh the only similarity he has to dreadlords is wings, the eyes in his chest are the same in color and appearance as N’zoth. And Il’gynoth is described as the source of corruption in the emerald dream, perhaps it’s what the old gods created to start the emerald nightmare as a threat. I just don’t see him as a dreadlord, especially since enemy infiltration explains that they believe the void is placated by their many truth but are the only ones who may know what they’re doing and are a threat.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

Maybe Il’gynoth is what dreadlords turn into when they drink/absorb too much void juice? It’s certainly a interesting theory if anything

[Erriden-moon-guard]

Idk could be? I just don’t personally see it, cause what’s the point? It’s not like the other cosmic forces that are easy to deceive because they lack a foresight into the future, the beings of the void seem to have already foreseen death’s attempts to win the great struggle hence why N’zoth says “only I can save this world, from what is to come.” Granted him saving the world would also lead to a universal loss.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

Well, you got to remember that the Void sees ALL paths as truth, they just don’t know which one exactly will come to pass. And I’m pretty sure the void/old gods winning means the death of everything, it’s in their nature to want to consume everything in their path.

[Erriden-moon-guard]

Oh no I said that N’zoth winning would definitely be universe ending, it’s just funny how he knew. Plus Il’gynoth has a voice line where he goes “N’zoth sees all.”

[Micâh-moon-guard]

Oh, right, you did say that. Silly me

[Renautus-arathor]

“The Vassel of Life” is the Emerald Dream, or by extension Eonar/Freya.
When Il’gynoth suggests that this is hiding some dark truth in the origin of creation and only Life has the answer is a bit vague. But the fact that chronicle can’t confirm if Freya created the Emerald Dream or just stumbled upon it raises some concerns because Freya essentially used it to Terraform Azeroth (and possibly other Titan world Souls) maybe that’s the root of the treachery… maybe those world souls were implanted and not formed naturally.

[Raselle-kargath (Raselle)]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

No because Lysonia and the Hand of Purity were soul binds and the Hand had zero idea Lysonia had sided with the Forsworn, so that’s not true.

That just means they don’t share current memories.

Soulbinding seems to involve a sharing of all experiences up to that point, so Moonberry being something other than what she appears to be all along would be among such memories shared with the Winter Queen when they became Soulbound. And if she were somehow replaced afterward, then that would be readily apparent too, because a different creature killing her and taking her place (as dreadlords have been shown to do) wouldn’t be Soulbound to the Winter Queen.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Raselle-kargath

Soulbinding seems to involve a sharing of all experiences up to that point, so Moonberry being something other than what she appears to be all along would be among such memories shared with the Winter Queen when they became Soulbound.

Which if they were soulbound already before Moonberry became a Dreadlord agent, point is moot.

We literally have zero context for why Lady Moonberry is in the Court of Night, which is otherwise entirely composed of either Droman (in charge of each Tirna) or Wild Hunt leadership.

The whisper and Enemy Infiltration both refer to a vassal who the Dreadlords convinced to be an agent of theirs.

Not that she was replaced.

[Denona-khazgoroth (Denona)]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

Ilgynoth is the only being with wings allied to N’zoth

So aqir with wings and mantid with wings don’t count?

@Baalsamael-turalyon

The general shape of Ilgynoth resembles a Dreadlord imo

That is mainly due to him using Kil’jaedens sunwell skeleton, which is also used for Sinestra in BoT and Helya in Maw Souls & Trial of Valor.

You are starting to sound like Yven. Don’t go down that rabbit hole.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Denona-khazgoroth

So aqir with wings and mantid with wings don’t count?

Bug wings are different from bat wings. Former are bugs, latter are mammals.

@Denona-khazgoroth

That is mainly due to him using Kil’jaedens sunwell skeleton, which is also used for Sinestra in BoT and Helya in Maw Souls & Trial of Valor.

And yet both of those examples don’t look at all dreadlord-esque

[Erriden-moon-guard]

If the wings are your only grab at dreadlord esque design then Kiljaedans is dreadlord esque he uses bat wings.

[Micâh-moon-guard]

I was just going to say Kil’jaedan resembles a dread lord pretty closely with the bat wings and all

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

He does, given Dreadlords precede the corruption of the Eredar, which has always been strange. Bat wings in WoW are always tied to demons or some death stuff (gargoyles and now Revendreth things).

But never Old Gods.