Not much, but some. If you did stack power. You ran out of mana. Mana management used to be a thing.
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Drop raid DPS by about 30-35% at worst, assuming you favor lots and lots of Warriors and Mages, and youâd still see people downing Rag pre-submerge.
People made very stupid errors in planning and play for the early raids. Strategies were rife with bad rumors and worse understandings of mechanics. What was âabsolutely neededâ was often just because some raid lead of some semi-progressed guild demanded it, not because anyone actually needed anything of the sort.
Rag is mechanically simple and straight forward, like 100% of Vanilla bosses relative to stuff as old as late-TBC and all of Wrath, much less present day BfA encounters.
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It was only a thing because the operating assumption was that fights were always going to last longer than your mana pool, a very dumb assumption.
And a Mage in 1.0 could still get over 200 Frost/Spell Power before consumables, while still having access to the same Mana Potions, Dark Runes, Manastones, etc.
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That was mostly due to players being bad, not because of some difference in the game.
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As Fatprincess stated, weâre using gear and talents that are 150% stronger than what was available at launch with MC.
Sure, people are better at the game, sure thereâs all the info in the world on the game, but the biggest factor would be end-of-life vanilla gear/talents, etc. being available upon game launch, as opposed to vanillaâs launch.
I played vanilla a month or two after it was released, and like many people, was a straight addict, yet I never raided anything, didnât even acquire anything close to the pre-raid bis gear that everyone is decked out in now (if not all purps yet). I was definitely not a âgoodâ player back then, but I played wow more than I did just about anything back in the day and the ease at which I can accomplish things now in classic vs. my vanilla playing days is very surprising to me.
Iâm not saying there was an âeasierâ way to make this project happen, but 1.12 everything while playing launch content has not made for a great experience, it feels more like the retail experience where everything is very easily obtainable by just about anyone in the game.
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Haha. Ok. I think we all agree that this was a very easy game to begin with. If you want to talk about the general over all player or your generation 15 years ago being âbadâ, go ahead. But the people progression raiding already knew how to play. Letâs not go overboard with this âeveryoneâ bucket.
You think we were all cavemen back then? Câmon man.
No. But the people who raided were a small minority population, and those that were competent at doing it even by Vanilla-era standards were an even smaller minority population within that one. Idealized strategies and preferable skill usage wasnât exactly pinned down very well, consistently, or substantiated with much more than âWell MY guild killed Noth, and yours is stuck in MC, so shut up!â
I mean if you really want to be specific about it, look at the guild progress and kill videos of Naxx40. Mages still rocking deep Frost builds while wearing 8/8 Tier 2, only one or two token Warrior DPS, etc. Folks were silly.
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You can watch world first videos. They were clueless.
The people in vanilla were nowhere near as informed as we are now. Keyboard turning, backpedaling, and AFKing were rampant, even in the most serious of guilds. Gear choices were terrible, with people wearing some of the worst items available to them because they overvalued some stats and undervalued others. Talents were not optimized. Raid comps were not optimized.
People back then, relative to us now, were bad. Very bad.
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Thereâs no way 150 spell power was considered geared like a boss⌠My 42 shadow priest has 120 or 150 depending on two items i swap out as needed, and when i hit 44 I will have around 180 spell power, or i can drop a bit of spell power when i want slightly higher stamina and or intellect.
its not just the patch that created the difficulty It was more that alot of people where brand new to the game. Alot of people have 15 years worth of data and guides to go through and alot of players came from retail so everyone knows how the game mechanics work and what to do. Back in the day classes where treated alot different as alot of people didnt know things. I remember when MC first came out random classes where taking bindings since some people didnt know what they were for. Or rogues where first ones to build thunderfury or hunters building thunderfury. They didnt have BIS lists before the game came out nor did they know boss mechanics before the raid was out.
This I will agree with. And i am also replying to OhShift.
One of the things lacking back then was knowledge sharing. Progression guilds held their strategies close to their heart. Each guild could have had their own way of doing things. In the progression race, as a guild we didnât exactly share that you could stack ignites indefinitely at the time, with other guilds. Iâm sure they found out about it eventually, but it wasnât âcommon knowledgeâ.
And 15 years of experience also plays a huge part of it. For us, changes happened gradually. Raids were introduced gradually. Talents and gear changes happened. This means as players, we had to adapt to change. Things werenât time gated like it is now. This whole idea of âok, weâre going to get BiSâ so that when raid X drops, weâll be ready wasnât relevant. When a new raid tear was dropped, no guild was armed to the teeth and 100% ready to smash it like people are now. This also means that when it comes to class comp, we didnât have the opportunity to stack warriors until it was too late.
Now, I say this primarily with with regards to Naxx and why it will cleared much faster - without a doubt. Itâll happen day 1 - by the most try hards. People will enter it geared to the teeth. Back in the day, we flasked up, because we were always playing the dps game. We always raided the previous raid tier. Why? Because, some people still needed gear from there. Now, weâll have raiders chomping at the bit, bored out of their minds, just getting ready for it.
My only point is this. Not everyone was completely clueless. If you want to talk Naxx and why itâs being cleared so quickly, itâs all good. But MC? Câmon. We got up until Rag, very quickly. Guilds worth their salt at the time, mostly did. But, the DPS just wasnât there so Mana management and FR became more important.
Right. Which goes back to this point here:
It isnât just as simple as âPress Frostbolt, receive lootâ even though thatâs all you really do while actively during the raid. The difference between someone with FULL consumables vs. none or minimal is absurd. Flask of Supreme Power plus Greater Arcane Elixir plus Elixir of Frost Power is a grand total of 200 Frost Spell Power, or put another way, you nearly double your available SP unless youâre absolutely BiS. Then you have more than half the raid try to do that kind of consumable stacking and efficient gear selection while also knowing precisely how much health a boss has makes for a very different set of understandings moving forward.
The amount of DPS the Rogues are doing right now shouldnât be all that different from the Patch 1.1 Rogues, especially the Combat Sword variety. Warlocks only really got a boost from the Patch 1.4 gearing, so about 10-12%, as the typical DS-Ruin spec didnât budge in terms of raw power.
We just didnât try to push a raid to that point back then. Guild leaders demanded Fire Resist on Ragnaros. And for what exactly? The random knock backs and lava splashes? The Tanks are one thing but everyone else should have been nearly full glass cannon mode. I remember my guild enforcing FR gear on Baron and Lava Packs for the entire friggin raid. I remember âneedingâ FR for Vael. The experimentation just wasnât there and the willingness to try and fail wasnât there at all. If a boss did a thing, the assumption followed you react to it in a specific way, no exceptions, unless youâre genuinely screwed to progress.
I wonder how in the world did the same raiders who concocted the figure-8 parade-o-mobs strategy on Razorgore never think to go pure DPS to nuke things so fast mana couldnât even become a concern? It isnât as if Blizzard didnât give us a âhey this is just how hard you can really hitâ taste with Vael, but then again that boss ruined so many guilds so perhaps min-maxing the basics was just a bridge too far for most.
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If this post was made 20 hours ago, why is it a topic from six to ten months ago?
It is SO fun to me to read the old comments from 2005 on Classic WoWhead for really bad items that no one should want like Crimson Shocker and see people arguing over what class âdeserves itâ and realizing just how uninformed most players were. Itâs goofy but good for gaining perspective.
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Plus bosses have like 1 mechanic instead of 3.
Reason 1. Average internet connection speeds were much slower, resulting in a larger percentage of your raid getting hit by standing-in-the-fire mechanics.
Reason 2. Class design was far less optimized in previous iterations, resulting in lower output.
Reason 3. Smaller servers made it far harder to find players who could raid well, resulting in 2-5 successful raid guilds per server.
Reason 4. WoWhead and Icyveins are superior to thotbot and alakazham.
Reason 5. Players who are still playing classic after 5 months are more hardcore than people who played classic in 2004-2006.
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I have 6k mana, and 3k health as a fresh 60 mage.
Back in Vanilla while raiding MC, with a few T1 pieces I had 2k HP and 4K mana.
The stats are definitely off.
Dont forget the snow. There was so much snow.
They arenât, but you go on with this funny and totally verifiable anecdote.
BTW
A naked Human Mage with zero talents has 1,640 Health and 2,808 Mana. You wouldnât even need half your gear equipped to hit 2k/4k respectively.
But nice try!
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Talking about 2k hp and 4k mana in vanilla, not classic. Nice try boomer.
Itâs not like you ever played Vanilla, why are you even replying.