Fair enough, memories differ.I know we had more than that.
I note that APES takes 11 healers while killing Rag in 1:20.
https ://classic.warcraftlogs. com/reports/fHnD4LYATwMh8gpP#fight=last&type=healing
The only reason ony is a pain to pug is because sheâs immune to taunt and her threat resets are bug riddled.
Pugs donât wipe on ony to actual mechanics, they wipe because like 6 people die in phase 3 while the tank gets aggro back, and even then only if she breathes on the raid or cleaves a bunch of people in the process.
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Hilariously, if this statement was uttered 15yrs ago, people would be like: âWait⌠you still have 34 others in the raidâŚ?â
Ony PuGs in Classic are instead: âEh, we have 21 people, thatâs more than plenty, letâs go!â
People also forget that prior to the Rag fight nerf around 1.4ish (I think), the lava bursts were a whole lot more prevalent, random, and did a lot more damage. Those alone added a significant âsometimes you get lucky, sometimes you get screwedâ factor to the fight that is definitely not prevalent after that nerf. The lava bursts were the cause of more wipes than Rag was.
Better to have too much, than not enough?
specially if you already have plenty of dps.
Not sure who said that considering in TBC a guy went from 1 to 70 in 27 hours straight
However, they also frequently bugged out and never happened at all for entire attempts, usually after the first wipe. Now, granted that first wipe meant a run-back through BRD at one point, and you only had one hour total to kill him, still. If you watch the video of the first ever kill, lava burst never happens.
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Ooo and the melee never budge either because you could still outrange the knock back, so the first kill occurred with virtually zero mechanics involved and still took ages.
Sorry, I misspoke. Lava BURST where he nukes people into the lava, did happen and killed healers you mostly canât see because the boss is between them and the camera, but you can see them talking about it in chat.
Lava SPLASH was the ability they fixed later, the one that sometimes did a lot of damage and sometimes didnât happen at all. Didnât happen in that kill at all.
I love that video tbh.
Out of curiosity i went into the patch notes and i found this doozy
â+Spell damage and +Healing effects have been increased in effectiveness to make them more attractive to players. Effects that increased damage and healing done by all magical spells received the largest increase, especially if the previous amount was small. We also fixed a couple bugs relating to these effects.â
wth is that supposed to mean blizzard??!! This was like 1.4 or 1.5.
I swear you never actually look at anything posted⌠this has been explicitly discussed multiple times and we can point to exactly what items changed and by how much.
https://itemization.info/?search=with%3Aspelldmg+with%3Afiredmg+with%3Ashadowdmg+with%3Afrostdmg+with%3Aarcanedmg+with%3Anaturedmg+with%3Ahealing+updated%3A1.4#with=spelldmg,firedmg,shadowdmg,frostdmg,arcanedmg,naturedmg,healing:updated=1.4
A query of all items that had Spell Power, Healing Power, or any of the element specific Power stats that were updated in Patch 1.4.
All 288 of them.
Click any item and you can see what the stats were at any given patch during Vanillaâs cycle. Items with SP received a few points of a bump to specifically encourage the use of the stat since people were, as the patch notes clearly indicate, flatly ignoring in favor of Int/Spirit/Mp5.
For example:
https://itemization.info/item/862 gained 3 SP
https://itemization.info/item/1716 gained 8 SP
https://itemization.info/item/942 gained 6 Frost SP
EDIT: And to be abundantly exceedingly overwhelmingly clear⌠when I tallied up the potential stats of a Patch 1.1 Mage, I used the Patch 1.1 stats as indicated and not the current stats. 200+ SP on a Patch 1.1 Mage was more than doable without a single buff or consumable.
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That does sound interesting, but I am unable to locate it in the patch notes for either of those patches. Could you be more specific about where you saw it?
dsl +2 GB RAM is the hardest boss in vanilla.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Patch_1.4.0
Under Items:
+Spell damage and +Healing effects have been increased in effectiveness to make them more attractive to players. Effects that increased damage and healing done by all magical spells received the largest increase, especially if the previous amount was small. We also fixed a couple bugs relating to these effects.
You can also note this interesting note as well:
Random world items that had increased healing effects were mislabeled, and the amount of increased healing appeared to be half of what was actually occurring. The amount shown on the item is now an accurate representation of the healing increase.
This same patch saw a lot of item tweaks and tuning passes, from looks to basic ânow sheaths properlyâ
Dialup +512k +750Mhz CPU +onboard video = the immortal god of doom
lol. iâm not talking about change to itemization. But they said âeffectâ of +damage + healing gear.
Edit: Iâm not trying to sway your opinion one way or the other. We both know that isnât happening. I just found what they wrote confusing. Unless Iâm missing something.
All it means is they gave items with pre-existing Spell Power and Healing Power more of the stat because people were passing them over for other items (presumably the only remaining caster stats of Intellect, Spirit, and Mana Regen). The change in itemization reflects exactly that.
It wasnât a bump to any spell coefficients or anything of that nature, the items literally got buffed in Patch 1.4 to make people stop passing on them because SP was supposed to actually be a pretty attractive stat since it was rarer than raw stats and actually made you better at your job.
Does it? Thatâs a generalization there. Yeah I dunno. To be honest, there were other patches where they flat out said, "changed item stats blah blah or introduced X items to dungeon X. This one as far more cryptic and is a bit of a head scratcher to me.
I was never much of a remember everything from each patch kind of person. So out of curiosity, i looked through some of them, and that one in particular stood out.
At the end of the day, there are a lot of factors into turning raids the state they are in. Some are quantifiable and some are not. Game knowledge is readily available. Content is âgatedâ - meaning that eveyrone will have to time prepare and get BiS before the raid is even released. Everyone knows what is coming.
This is in direct contrast to our gradual progression related releases where we had no idea what lay ahead in BWL. Talents got buffed. Gear quality got increased as time went on. Instances got nerfed.
People passing on +damage gear? Câmon. It took me a million runs to get my crimson felt hat because a ton of other casters wanted it. Who knows, maybe itâs because both of my mages were from day 1 servers where people had a clue.
In the absence of any evidence to the contrary I agree that yours is the more natural reading. Which would mean another buff to players, rather than a direct nerf to content, which is obviously the way Blizz prefers to do things. Totally unclear what the buff, if any, actually was though.
I was back to thinking thereâs more change in dps output than can be accounted for by the buffs we know of, so maybe thatâs part of it. Itâs obviously a matter of degree. We know people were buffed, but the buffs we know about come nowhere near explaining the differences we see. Some of itâs obviously knowledge, weâre just quibbling over how much. And I focus on casters, while I know the biggest single change is actually fury warriors.
I dunno. I just watched the first kill video again. Itâs clear that the mages have mastered the deep intricacy of Frostbolt spam. Curse of elements is up. At 2:50 when they come off the boss to kill sons, Rags is at 35%, so if his HP was what it is now, 1.1M, then he had taken 715K of damage. So during that time their dps was about 4,200 total. If you figure some of that was the tanks and even healers youâre at maybe 155-160 dps per person on average? (depends how many dps you think they had, how many died etc).
The guyâs meter that we can see never shows a mage get near the top. Could be heâs filtering out mages though (or maybe mages are white?). If not, then every mage did less than 150 dps during that period. Even if they are being filtered, mages arenât doing much more than that.
Above, they calculated that a buck naked mage should have been doing almost 150 dps if they were spamming frostbolt, which they were, and that didnât account for curse of elements, which was up. Given these guys had been farming the rest of MC for almost 3 months at that point, they werenât naked. Probably in at least 4 pieces of Arcanist, agility and all.
I donât think thereâs much evidence of direct nerfs to content, at least not Rags.
I spent a gratuitous amount of time looking for posts from 2005, and the only one with actual numbers I could find was: https://www.tentonhammer.com/guides/mc-boss-guide-boss-10-ragnaros which gives no numbers for anything but Wrath of Rag and Lava Splash, which are what they are now.
Then thereâs just stupid stuff like the fact that people now drink flasks like water, but only in Sep 2005 did that become even remotely viable, with flasks persisting through death and the cost being lowered with non-BoP black lotus. Even then they cost something like 100g. I remember feeling like a super tryhard when I farmed up flasks for our healers for our first Chromag attempt. And thereâs a hilarious thread on our old guild forum where I pushed for us to award DKP for flask donations, and other people worried that we would be âfloodedâ with flasks if we did that.
I did my dungeon grind from June-Sep 2005. People were still heavily focused on T0, but funny how stuff lies buried in the brain cells, once you mentioned that hat, yeah everybody loved that hat. Though I think the appearance was part of it 
I donât recall people going after that chest from Ras.
As far as the âgated contentâ issue, honestly I think it did exist in vanilla, with the obvious exception of the fact that people didnât know what the new content would be. Rags died on April 2005, BWL didnât come out till July 2005. Thatâs a long time for the top guilds to grind MC. I do remember forum drama about that.
Anyway, just randomly wallowing in the good olâ days at this point. I would love a classic+ with more vanilla content, even if only as a spectator, but realistically the Grizzly types would min-max it to death in a weekâŚ
It really isnât cryptic at all. Every item with any kind of X Power on it got a bump in stats. âBut it could have been more substantial with hidden thingsâ is just silly at this point, particularly with this entry in the patch notes.
Yes. Look at some of the items:
https://itemization.info/item/11822
Omnicast Boots went from being a green quality pair of boots with only 14 Spell Power to being a green quality pair of boots with only 22 Spell Power. It wasnât until Patch 1.10 that the boots kept the same 22 Spell Power but got 9 Intellect, 6 Stamina, and blue quality in upgrade, matching this patch note:
High-Level Instance Changes
Along with the new Armor Sets, the high-level 5-10 man dungeons have received some changes regarding loot. Many items have been improved in quality and use. In addition, several epic items, such as Headmasterâs Charge and the Runeblade of Baron Rivendare, have had their drop rates significantly increased. In order to preserve the challenge of these dungeons, they have had their instance caps lowered. Stratholme, Scholomance, and Blackrock Depths now allow a maximum of five players inside, and Blackrock Spire allows a maximum of ten.
Now consider for a moment the Crimson Felt Hat.
https://itemization.info/item/18727
It didnât exist until Patch 1.4.
[Scholomance]
- 20 new Rare items have been added to Scholomance.
- Several Uncommon items have been upgraded to Rare quality.
- [Rattlegore], [Jandice Barov], and [Lord Alexei Barov] will now always drop at least one Rare item.
- [Ras Frostwhisper] will always drop at least two Rare items.
[Stratholme] Itemization
- 26 new Rare items have been added to Stratholme.
- Several Uncommon items have been upgraded to Rare quality.
- [Archivist Galford], Baroness Anastasi, [Nerubâenkan], and [Maleki the Pallid] will now always drop at least one Rare item.
/facepalm
You⌠you just not reading the Patch notes links or looking at the changelog of items at all or�
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I think at this point. Less is more regarding my posts. Weâre getting lost - not seeing the forest through the trees. The main point being - that tidbit in the patch notes. Agree to disagree, but there is part of the patch notes specifically stating changes and additions to dungeon gear. This is in addition to that weird tidbit above it regarding +damage, healing values.