If not Sylvanas, then who?

Lore Story Forum
109

I wasn’t trying to claim otherwise. I’m just salty and felt the need to snark.

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110

I can definitely relate to that! :purple_heart:

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111

Fair. However, earlier in the narrative (I don’t have the care to go find citations) it’s very clearly stated that the occupation or destruction of Teldrassil is good for its own sake. It’s that text that I was remembering. And, that is true. Taking Teldrassil establishes military dominance of the continent, and if they had kept the Azerite under wraps this would have been even more poignant. It’s also heavily suggested (imo) that Gallywix is playing both sides of the war for profit (which is so appropriate), and that could, in my view, contribute to this situation as well.

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112

I think generally the number one thing I gathered from “A Good War” was that Saurfang was operating on a completely different plan than Sylvanas (and one that she gave him). This is her still unknown personal motives for this conflict rearing their annoying little heads again.

Saurfang ALWAYS treats Malfurion and Tyrande as obstacles best avoided if possible (and he’s confused when Sylvanas reacts negatively to the knowledge that ONLY Malfurion would be on the field for the attack). Saurfang is elated they’ll only have to deal with ONE of them, Sylvie seems almost livid.

Sylvanas in contrast, Despite the plan (as she presented it) almost requiring NE leadership of Malf and Tyrande’s influence to work; there is never a point after the attack starts where she doesn’t want them dead. She had her own motives for their deaths (even if it would have also helped the War).

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113

Securing Kalimdor is good for it’s own sake, but it’s said that winning the overall war requires a divided and indecisive Alliance. Otherwise it’s either failure or a long bloody conflict with huge losses on the Horde’s end before they can hope for victory.

Sylvanas burned her win condition, uniting the Alliance against her in the process, and her plan for dividing the Alliance was flawed at the outset because it depended on Genn’s reaction and she completely misjudged him.

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114

This is true. I’m still with the Forsaken fellow. There’s plenty of reason for Sylvanas to think the Alliance is less stable than it was. I do think that the events of Before the Storm had palpable effect on Genn, and that Sylvanas’ very personal experience with him in Stormheim led her to a very reasonable conclusion: he damned her whole people just to get revenge, why would he not be chomping at the bit? And considering the history of Gilneas… it seems a good assumption that old wolves can’t be tamed.

I also think, while it ensures a drawn-out war, occupying (or destroying) Teldrassil on its own puts the Horde at a massive military advantage, especially if they can maintain a monopoly on azerite (which, at the time was very possible, and in my view was screwed up by Gallywix). It’s a measured decision, but for what their aims were, I think they made the sensible choice.

115

I support Jazia’s points about Sylvanas’ plan to pit the Gilneans against the Alliance because of the Night Elves as completely flawed from the very beginning, as Genn has repeatedly stated that he would not turn his back on the Night Elves, and has lived up to those words.

Sylvanas’ biggest flaw when it comes to her planning is she doesn’t think people can change. This was the case for Genn, and I even once pointed out that it was even the case for Malfurion:

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116

let the horde be a democracy, led by the leaders of each race together, it would be a good change from the alliances monarchy

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117

Oddly enough, despite even Metzen calling for Thrall to return, I think this is likely the outcome of BfA.

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118

I’m really hoping so, it might be the only thing that can help the horde turn over a new leaf and stop being portrayed as the bad guys

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119

Talanji for Warchief

120

Sure, but the flipside of that is relying on that compassion and gratitude to overcome their desire to no longer be exiles and for them to not seize a golden opportunity to retake their original homeland. Seven years is nothing compared to centuries of heritage and no matter how much we would like to pretend that the kindness of strangers would suddenly make an entire nation embrace sacrifice for the good of their newfound friends, a nation in exile will often prioritize itself first.

Like, i’v met people who were genuinely upset that the Worgen were folded into the Army of the Black Moon to retake Darkshore even though attacking Gilneas would be falling headfirst into Sylvanas’s plan because they have wanted their starting home back forever. Genn might say he fights for the Alliance, but for decades Genn has cared about one and only one thing, Gilneas. You can’t say it wasn’t based on research and observation when it’s predicated on what Genn Greymane has been for basically his entire life, and centered on the wounded pride of his nation which tends to matter quite a lot to exiles.

Nevermind that doing so would also let them get back at the Forsaken in the process, their most hated enemy who they could then freely slaughter in the process of getting back their home after being inflicted with so much pain. Plenty I would imagine would relish the chance to make the Forsaken exiles from their home.

This is partially why I found Anduins plan to force the Zandalari into neutrality was nonsense even though the Zandalari have known the Horde for a relatively short amount of time, you attack their pride, the thing they BUILT THEIR NATION ON, and you expect…surrender? are you…are you insane?

The Zandalari have exhibited the fact that the thing that matters above everything else is Zandalar, they will not surrender, they will make them hunt you down like animals for this! this will burn your homes, shatter your fortresses, spend every waking moment of their lives trying to slit your throat and put out your eyes, never rest until your nations are dust and your crops are salted with your ground bones, and-

…In retrospect, ripping that pride away from the Gilneans in favor of their compassion kind of made me lose a little respect for them, huh.

Edit: I stewed on that last bit for awhile, the last sentence that is and reconsidered it while doing my battlegrounds. In retrospect the opposite is true, I gained respect for the Gilneas by them putting their necks on the line for another and it was just me being hyperbolic for the sake of a bit, it would be an extreme double standard for me to condemn the Gilneans for not engaging in the exact behavior that earned them my ire to begin with.

But I do think there is some part of my inner exile that resonates with that statement, of being forced from your home and doing anything to take it back. I think there is something to be said for nationalism and pride, the power it holds over people, especially people that have been forced out of their homes in one way or another. In my head I could easily hear the argument that people would make in that Genn Greymane should go after Gilneas first, strike back at the Forsaken, and then we can negotiate for Darnassus after we’ve taken them out and the bickering between refugees on where the hardest place to strike Sylvanas would actually be.

Nationalism is a drug, the kind whose effects aren’t easily shaken off. I don’t view Sylvanas banking on it as a miscalculation because from an offensive realists world view this is just…how nations behave, and it’s an ideology that isn’t wrong because often times other offensive realists think in the same terms as them.

This is a topic ill want to chew on for awhile, since I have a lot…complex…feelings about exiles in WoW.

121

This isn’t nationalism. That’s anachronistic. Nationalism requires nation-states, and Azeroth doesn’t have those institutions. You’re thinking of the virtue of patriotism.

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124

Tl:dr, Legion was fiiiine!! Poor wittle Alliance had to take 4 quests from Thrall (when he was under the same brand of neutrality than Malfurion but of couse in his case this doesn’t count), so of course it’s perfectly balanced for Hordies to take both quests and/or heat from Malfurion, Tyrande, Alleria, Brann, Tirion, Jaina, Velen, Anduin, Khadgar, Yrel, Darion and any other Alliance / back and fort Alliance / Alliance flavored NPC, amrite?

Also… ToW sucked not necessarily because the barrens conflict was messy but because Golden et al tried too hard to push the blame of everything on Garrosh’s shoulders, literally removing Jaina’s accountability just to elevate her to tragic heroinedoom.

Btw… Kindly, keep quiet regarding sending me anywhere big boy cause you simply lack what it takes to achieve it Mr. MUH HUNUR HURDEEE!!!

125

Technically correct, which is the best kind of correct. But yeah, the spirit of what i’m saying is much the same, that there was a pretty good chance that a society like the Gilneans would of taken the bait even if they felt they owed the Kaldorei.

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126

I know Darion Mograine is kind of a big deal, and the Ebon Blade does its own thing…

But if I am playing Racial tit for tat, why couldn’t we have Nazgrim on the Horde blimp at the end of Legion? Or Koltira?

You know, perhaps an Orc or Blood Elf DK instead of a Human?

It just irritated me (in admittedly the most petty way possible) having Darion, a Human DK, on that Horde blimp, just chillin’, being like “wassup.”

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127

In WotLK one kinda managed because back the devs at least tried to give some screentime to Horde NPCs… But Legion kinda was the drop that filled the cup to overload. We don’t complain for one mere expac but for entire YEARS on several expacs being submitted to that damned travestite over and over again. Look at Brann’s stuff in the incoming 8.2… It’s literally retarded to make us play his boytoys when the dude was stabbing us in the back like 5 min ago!!

128

Cuz it WAS Garrosh’s fault. He nuked her city completely unprovoked, and killed nearly everyone she cared about at the time. Like, accountability for what? Trying to flood Orgrimmar?

Wow! You sure showed me. :no_mouth:

129

“Completely umprovoked!!!”… She would look at the whole questing on Southern Barrens and how ToW tried to scapegoat Jaina’s own responsability in making her supposedly neutral city both a military base for Alliance troops AND a legitimate military target in consequence.

Accountability for not telling Varian that some miles to the north of Theramore there was a potential base he could use and to GTFO cause her city was NEUTRAL to the Horde /Alliance conflict, period. Neutrality IS NOT to support one side and Qqq when the other side feels betrayed and kicks you in the proverbial nuts, period.

Ans apparently I did show you, hour argument degenerated to literal pro Jaina brainless fangirling.

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130

Ji or Lor’themar, in my view. Ji is tougher, but seems someone with a good mix of action and peace, in spite of no much screen time. Lor’themar seems like he’d be good if he extended how he views his people to the Horde overall when becoming Warchief.

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