This is a typical profile of people who start threads on the need for a higher level of difficulty.
This is a MMORPG. Reward is - and should always be - tied to the simple formula of Time x Difficultly. Difficult content should give appropriate rewards to reflect that difficulty.
“Whale shark mode” ?
Somehow I’m skeptical about it taking off without rewards and as presented can be easily interpreted as taking something away rather than adding something new.
Sure in MMO’s (which are on the decline) high end means rewards. Like I said, no other multiplayer genre follows this anyone. You can be in the 0.001% of players and your not going to get a power boost for it. Games nowadays usually try to make content engaging on it’s own, they don’t need a carrot to get you to move.
Appeal by tradition fallacy.
So at your job, you shouldn’t get paid more since you work harder, everyone should get paid the same no matter the amount of effort you put it… yeah makes total sense
It isn’t tradition. It’s what Raids were created for. If the plan was to have it be a contest of skill, and that alone, they never would have put the best gear behind it. If Raids become nothing more than a e-thing measuring contest then you can count me out. I could care less about that sort of thing. I raid because the rewards are the best and I’m rewarded properly for tackling the hardest content in the game.
Again, you keep saying MMO but keep forgetting WoW is an MMORPG. Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game. RPGs are, at their core, all about the power progression, single player ones, multiplayer ones, tabletop to handheld. In a RPG harder content = greater rewards.
The fallacy is named appeal by tradition. It encompasses any argument that uses the past to justify the present or future. Such as “it’s always been that way”.
I’ll continue to say MMO in general because MMORPGs as a genre continue to decline and you go from forum to forum on any of the games and the majority of arguments against change are off the same basis. “It’s always been like that” or “It was supposed to do that”. Appeal by tradition fallacies.
Meanwhile a huge issue for MMOs in the industry is picking up new players in large part because the traditional pillars don’t work for the next generation of gamers. How does a game company appeal to the next generation if the current generation refuses to change on anything? They dont. They just continue to quietly wither away while their current fan-base ages, quits the game and is unable to find replenishment in the next generation.
In general, the MMORPG community has to be one of the hardest advocate groups when it comes to the #NoChanges mindset and it will only continue to stop progress.
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I agree with this.
Also I changed my look.
In DnD, we didn’t face down a demilich for the glory of killing one - no, we did it for the arcane treasures it guarded.
In Pokémon I didn’t grind the Battle Frontier (or whatever it’s called, changes every game) for the sake of grinding, I did it for the points so that I could get powerful items and move tutor moves for my team.
In Skyrim, I don’t kill the hardest dragons just to say I did it, but because I need the bones, souls, and EXP for gear, shouts, and levels.
WoW is no different. The progression of power is, at its core, the game itself because it is a RPG. This isn’t CoD or Fortnite or League, all multiplayer games, but World of WarCraft. Just because it’s multiplayer doesn’t mean these games are even close to the same genre.
MMO =! MMORPG. World of Tanks is an MMO. World of WarCraft is an MMORPG. It’s not about the “tradition”, your logical fallacy does not apply here. It’s a core fundamental of the entire RPG genre.
Also, FYI, “No changes” is in reference to Classic WoW, which is supposed to be a rerelease of the Original WoW. I think it’s kinda obvious why people don’t want changes in a game that’s entire purpose is to be a historical time capsule of 2004.
Also…hate to be the bearer of bad news, but MMORPGs have always been a niche genre. WoW’s success is the outliner, the genre is basically as popular as it’s always been after you subtract the “WoW fever” of the mid 2000’s. The only difference is now there are way more options to choose from.
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Skyrim and Pokemon being singleplayer even then I could argue the story, exploration and collection aspects of those respective games are bigger drivers than a shiny but hey. The DnD argument is a specific point in the story. You (hopefully), don’t play an entire DnD campaign for the sole purpose of being rewarded. As many times I have asked my players what their favorite part was and what keeps them coming to the campaigns, I have literally never heard any player say “I play the campaigns for the rewards”. Yes, a specific slice of a mission like your example can be for rewards. However, this is not how MMORPGS work. The entire game and almost every piece of content is about rewards and carrots. That’s not the driver for DnD.
Which fallacy did I use or are you just trying to play the uno reverse?
The specific #NoChanges applies to classic, the general mentality applies to every MMO’s audience.
Compared to single player games. However, MMORPGs was ahead of the multiplayer market for quite some time which is what I am comparing. For argument sake, even if it was, it would be irrelevant. Being a niche genre means letting your already niche audience wither is okay? If anything that makes it worse because you have less ground.
mythic lfr would be a disaster. lol. people couldn’t even kill lfr archimonde without 304985304958345 stacks and you want to put mythic in a queue? it would be hilarious to see the forums if they did something like this though.
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False Equivalency. Being the listed games are all RPGs, the foundational genre that the mmoRPG genre is built on, the foundations linger. In fact, WoW is an RPG that just so happens to be massively multiplayer. The massively multiplayer aspect isn’t the genre. The RPG is. Also, your DnD parallel is an either/or fallacy. Doing something for the sake of the rewards is not mutually exclusive to playing a game or campaign for the story or experiences. You see, doing challenging content for the rewards is the same as killing a challenging monster in DnD for the rewards. Especially in DnD where in many, many cases creatures like a Demilich are avoidable. You do the extra challenge for extra reward.
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You have said "Appeal to Tradition about a half dozen times now. It does not apply, as removing the “Challenge = Reward” aspect of an RPG is the very foundations of the RPG genre. The genre the game World of WarCraft belongs to.
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Citations needed. Head over to basically any part of the discussions forums, class forums, in development forums and you’ll see plenty of discussion on changes. Also, Change =! Good. There are such things as Good Changes and Bad Changes. Change for Change’s sake is not a good thing on its own.
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The niche audience isn’t withering. Hence is why OSRS and Final Fantasy 14 are growing not shrinking. Also, lets apply some logic here.
Since WoW came out, the amount of MMOs that have released has rocketed significantly. There were less options when WoW wsas in its prime and therefore it makes sense for that audience to branch out as more options are given.
Also lets look at another thing. MMORPGs (stop dropping the RPG aspect, an MMO is just any game that is both online and massively multiplayer) and other MMOs out there have different audiences . By making an MMORPG more like contemporary online games isn’t going to draw other players to the MMORPG. This may come at a shock, but Fortnite and WoW appeal to different people.
Also, this is a false equivalency again as just because one is multiplayer doesn’t mean that it is in the same ‘genre’ as other multiplayer games. Both Fortnite and WoW are massively multiplayer online games. Therefore they are the same, right?
People are more interested, nowadays, in finding a blanket way to dismiss people than actually arguing a point.
For example.
I find trying to find a fallacy to dismiss a person a Red Herring Fallacy.
Its an attempt to distract from the argument with something that seems to be relevant, but isn’t.
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Strawman also works, as its simplifying one’s viewpoints to an easily refutable state (by violating some hidden discussion rules that automatically refute someone’s views) as a means of propping up your own viewpoint.
Note that many of the people who are asking Mythic dungeons to be queue-able are the same people asking for Operation: Mechagon to be nerfed because its too hard.
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if mythic dungeons weren’t the same ilevel as lfr that would be one thing. you can do lfr and get the same ilevel of gear. there’s no reason for it to be in the queue. if you’re so casual you don’t do stuff with your guild you can wait a few weeks for lfr to open up and get your gear that way.
mostly i do WQ and stuff for mine though i’ve raided a little bit here and there.
In season 2 I pushed keys to get near full +10 gear, with one exception piece. Lately I’ve been doing Benthic + O:M solely, but that’s because after the 8.2 gear reset I can’t find the motivation to raid/M+.
That being said, since I am not doing the content, I don’t deserve the rewards. That should be fairly obvious. Kinda sad that in today’s WoW I have to make that little disclaimer, but here we are.
I don’t mind raiders and M+ folks getting great gear. I honestly don’t and I never have.
I do wish the game was designed better so that those of us who play other parts of the game could get rewards that helped us do better at the stuff we like to do. That’s the real problem, right? The ultimate reward is just higher level gear that is ultimately useful mostly for raiding and M+. So all the players who don’t enjoy those modes of game-play get told they don’t NEED the best rewards and don’t deserve the best rewards because – duh – the rewards are aimed only at one kind of player.
But EVERYONE wants rewards to work toward.
Blizzard has tried and tried to get more players to raid and do M+. It is a war they will never win. Loads of people play WoW to relax more than to compete. To accomplish goals, but not the kind you see in instances. You can’t make people like what they don’t like.
I have long wished that there was separate gear or additional stats for world content. For questing and exploring and gathering out in the world. Stuff that you could earn outside of instances and PvP. But I doubt Blizzard will go there as they can’t seem to get a grip on non-instanced end-game that isn’t, well, Island Expeditions. Lol.