Ice Floes should be baseline for Frost

Frost is the least mobile of the mage specs right now, and regardless of which talent build Frost goes into, it almost always relies on Ice Floes. It’s very useful - borderline mandatory on Glacial Spike/Edonbolt sets given the long cast time these spells have (in particular the Spike).

But even on the Frozen Orb build, you’re pretty much better off running Ice Floes over Shimmer because you have 3 cast time spells in your rotation anyway: Frostbolt, Blizzard (which will have a cast outside FO even when talented into Freezing Rain), and RoP (which is required for the FO build to be competitive).

Shimmer does allow a cast while Blinking, but again if Frost takes Shimmer it has nothing else to DPS with on the move except any procs it’s holding on to. Even then, given the RNG dependency of the spec, this will not always happen. Furthermore several fights are designed as such where excessive movement away from your group isn’t a good option. It can also put you out of position to where the target can no longer be hit by your spell (you wont be facing it).

Now, you might argue that Fire and Arcane also have cast-time spells in their base rotation & the same restrictions with Shimmer, but they have spells in their kit that do allow them better mobility/alternatives. Arcane has Presence of Mind, Displacement, and Chrono Shift. Fire can Scorch and has Frenetic Speed. The issue is Frost has no spell in the 75 talent tier that offers better mobility (ie a good counterpart to Chrono Shift or Frenetic Speed).

Since better speed is better DPS, and Frost is already the worst of the 3 specs on single target, it seems harsh to also make it the least mobile spec when movement is factored in as well. Therefore, I think it’d be nice if Ice Floes was made baseline for Frost.

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No, it’s not. Fire is less mobile in PvP and arcane is less mobile in PvE.

, and regardless of which talent build Frost goes into, it almost always relies on Ice Floes.

Why would you use Ice Floes with thermal void?

Well, let me answer you like this: why wouldn’t you use Ice Floes with Thermal Void?

On the Mastery build, Thermal Void cannot compete with Glacial Spike on both Single target and 2 target cleave. On pure single target fights, casting Ice Lance is a DPS loss and “no ice lance” is your best option.

On a Haste FO build: You’ll never gain 2 seconds per Ice Lance into Icy Veins since you’re always using a GCD. This time penalty depends on your Haste. However, you’ll Ice Lance if: you have FoF or if you have Brain Freeze. Even then, for ideal, competitive DPS, you want Frostbolt > Flurry via BF > Ice Lance. The only you’ll break this rule is if you have Packed Ice on the target thanks to your Frozen Orb, which again is a short window.

So then, why wouldn’t you want Ice Floes to be able to weave in Frostbolts in case movement comes in? It has more charges than Shimmer does, and leaves you with the option of breaking stuns with Blink (very, very important in mythic+ dungeons). Being able to cast more Frostbolts on the move is advantageous for Frost since it can generate both Brain Freeze and FoF.

Not to mention so many encounters have minor phases of movement that do not warrant the distance of a blink. In fact on some encounters blinking at the wrong time can spectacularly backfire. Finally, this build also requires you to Blizzard, even on a lone target, which again has a cast time and being able to cast it on the move is a huge perk.

So I turn it back to you: why wouldn’t you want Ice Floes with Thermal Void? Mind you Thermal Void is completely moot outside of Icy Veins (ie the majority of a fight). So you’re essentially saying Shimmer is better when you’re running a talent that only impacts your 3 min DPS cd for its duration without anything to back it up.

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I would argue that not only should it be baseline but it should be a passive: Frost gets to cast Frostbolt while moving.

EDIT: Or another idea I thought about after my last post in the Mage forums:
Ice Lance extends slow effects by 1.5sec per shard without it going over the normal 8sec.
So if you have all 5 shards you can basically reset the slow with an instant cast and if you have only 1 you can at least keep it from ticking down (1.5boost + 1.5GCD)

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Ahhh, what? You didn’t need to write a book for that. You go shimmer with thermal void builds because you’re instant casting at least half the time anyway, and it’s generally more mobile. You virtually never have to interrupt a frostbolt to move, and even in the once per raid or dungeon chance that you do, the dps loss is minimal.

Also, if you have 3+ icicles, an FoF proc, and a BF, you should cast IL > flurry > IL. Not frostbolt. DPS gain and more mobility.

Uh no, if you have 3+ icicles, an FoF proc, and a BF you go IL > Frostbolt > Flurry > Ice Lance. This way you have a chance to proc another BF which you can use for another Flurry into Ice Lance which will reduce the cooldown of your Orb even more. This build relies on pumping out as many Orbs as possible and doing bursts with RoP in the window it provides.

You always precede Flurry with a cast-time spell & the only time you break this rule is when the target has packed ice on it.

And your other point is also wrong (explained why if you read). As is your claim about Arcane being less mobile in PvE (4 blinks + PoM + Chrono Shift say hello). PvP depends on who you’re against.

Mind you, I have nothing against Fire and Arcane retaining their mobility kits. I’d just like Frost to gain some as well given how it’s by default the worst at DPS even in an ideal scenario.

Oh. You’re one of those people who tries to lecture without listening.

The crux of your case on why you should take Shimmer over Floes is “You go shimmer with thermal void builds because you’re instant casting at least half the time anyway, and it’s generally more mobile”.

At this point I don’t know if you’re trolling or just replying for the sake of argument, but:

You will have instant casts based on how many Frostbolts you can cast, since Frostbolt is the only generator of BF, and a major generator of FoF procs. Since Ice Floes lets you do this 3 times on the move, instead of twice with Shimmer (assuming you are still facing your target after Shimmer) while still offering you the utility of breaking stuns, it’s better.

I’m still waiting for a justification as to why Shimmer is better than Floes with Thermal Void, which you stipulated in your first reply. You haven’t provided any reason to suggest this.

And your rotational info was incorrect as well, so I suggest a brush up on the FO build cast priority. Good day.

I’m still waiting for a justification as to why Shimmer is better than Floes with Thermal Void, which you stipulated in your first reply. You haven’t provided any reason to suggest this.

I did, and it wasn’t. Like I said, you aren’t here to have a conversation, you’re here to try and lecture. No use talking about it.

And your rotational info was incorrect as well

For anyone else who might read this thread and wonder about rotation, don’t listen to this guy. With 3+ icicles, a BF, and one FoF, do IL > flurry > IL. Do not add a frostbolt in, it will lower your dps. By flurrying immediately after IL, you land shatter on your icicles, which does more damage than a shattered frostbolt. On procs, look at the cast times:

IL > frostbolt > flurry > IL
IL > flurry > IL > (frostbolt)

They’re the same, with the same proc chances. Ignore this bloke.

Stopped reading here.

If you have played Frost/Fire in PvP you would know for certain that Fire is a lot more mobile than Frost at this point in the game.

Get with the times plox and ty.

Oh and to clarify, I think Ice Floes should be base line also.

Kiting melee isn’t what it used to be. Sitting still casting Frostbolt is like bringing a water pistol to a gun fight.

Ah, no. Frost is more mobile in PvP because its primary damage dealer can be cast while moving. Forget frostbolt.

^ Doesn’t duel lul.

I’m a noob Mage with a novice question: When people say “mobile”, do they mean abilities to move around (like Blink et al), number of instant spells (like Fire Blast), and/or number of ways for a Mage to cast spells while moving around? (like using Ice Floes)

Are Mage’s abilities to slow/freeze/stun taken into account when people talk about mobility?

I guess it’s a bit of both sir.

I tried both Frost and Fire for PvP. Frost I’d end up having to stand still quite a lot to get some frostbolts off and start a chain of instant cast abilities (Brain freeze, fingers and fingers of frost) So not very mobile, I could kite my enemy to move around a bit but these days it’s hard to shake a good melee class. (Try kiting a DK or a DH lol) They catch up to you in no time and you have to throw non-proc instant casts hitting for almost nothing or risk casting.

Respec fire and suddenly I’m able to sprint around casting scorch and getting pyro chains causing massive damage and making my once formidable enemies look like little p00sies.

But don’t quote me, I’m just a nerd who played WoW for 10 years or so and don’t really know much outside of AFKing BG’s and the occasional poonage of the noob so to speak.

I’m curious, this rotation you’re talking about … it’s not for NoIL or Frozen Orb build right?
Just standard with Thermal Void instead of GS?

It’s for a high Mastery TV setup or just TV in general, but it’s one of those questionable rotational changes that only works in niche situations, and the DPS gain is very little or a loss; the default rotation is already shattering a lot of icicles for free.

I could see it in PvP for burst, but with a PvE rotation you’ll either be canceling casts or munching a large portion of your Brain Freeze procs.

Frost mage castable while moving w/shimmer talent:

  • Frost orb
  • Ice lance
  • Flurry with brain freeze procs
  • Comet storm (talent)

Arcane mage castable while moving w/shimmer talent:

  • Arcane barrage (has a CD unlike ice lance, and consumes your charges)
  • Arcane orb (talent - rarely picked due to strength of Overpowered)

It doesn’t require high mastery and it’s not a niche situation, but distance does matter. At closer range you’ll want 4+ icicles instead of 3+, because an extra icicle may hit before the debuff applies.

Compare those two rotations again – because you’re using your BF proc before the frostbolt, you’ll be munching fewer BF procs than you would by casting an additional frostbolt before flurry. This is a straight DPS gain in the both the short and long terms.

This rotational change when simmed has not historically outperformed the default rotation, and log comparisons do not show a significant increase in %icicles shattered. If there’s new research out there I’d love to see it.

I didn’t say that, but the impact of an icicle shatter is higher for a mastery-weighted profile.

The default rotation munches zero BF procs.

Gaming icicles and shatters by casting IL>Flurry>IL will munch a considerable amount of BF procs, which cuts into the shattered icicle percentage that this rotation aims to increase while losing overall Icicle-count due to BF proc munching. Not only this, but casting IL>Flurry barely shatters more Icicles than the default rotation would at max range; you’re trading Frostbolt shatters, a munchless rotation, and more Icicles for a very small increase to Icicle shatter%.

A better way to increase %Icicles shattered would be moving further from the boss while executing the default rotation.

Icicles are not calculated on impact.