I vote this
Give mw big dam and mistwalk back
It’s not.
The amount of damage needed from your healers will be dependent upon the average ilvl and performance of your raid, the strat you are performing, and amount of healers in your raid. And even so, unless you’re doing WF raiding or top 1% of keys, healer dps is not a requirement - although it can have a significant impact.
Apply that to the PUG world and given the chance to have a healer that can do as much damage as a tank vs. one that can only do 20% of that, groups are going to gravitate and want to play with healers/players that can pump damage as it will increase their chances for success.
The game isn’t designed that way, but the discrepancy with healer dps output is. The game doesn’t need to be tuned, the classes do. Bring the top healer dps classes down, and bring the bottom healer dps classes up.
Close that gap and the meta will change from the top dps healers to the healers that bring specific utility and/or synergize with meta tanks/dps.
Neither are you, but no one’s trying to write off your argument either. To your logic, every announcer for any sport or game would need to be an expert in their field to have an opinion.
There are lots of players who follow top content closely, and while they may not participate in it, are well informed. But regardless, that doesn’t mean they’re opinion should be excluded from the conversation.
Get this non-sense out of here.
Same applies to non world first mythic raiding and +20 keys…
Every week that goes by dps checks go down. So for the average guild thats 4 or 5 out of 10 right now, the bosses they’re fighting are a lot easier due to dps checks literally becoming a non issue.
So no one in here can talk about world first raiding or high keys. Got it, let’s just stop talking, stop discussing anything, and stop even listening to what other players have to say because they don’t have the experience - or at least enough experience for you - to be in the conversation.
Dude, get a grip. It’s a conversation. Instead of attacking people individually. Why don’t you enlighten them to your opinion in the content you do?
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Oh I wouldnt advocate for it I’m just saying it is possible to do.
The “reverse atonement” style of healing does not fundamentally work.
We saw this with Vengeance back in MoP where tank survivability exponentially scaled with how much damage they took making them fundamentally immortal when they were mega-pulling AND standing in avoidable damage to maximize vengeance, and thus survivability and damage, and were made of paper in situations where they were taking low sustained amounts of damage.
Even ignoring the balance issues that a healer designed around this would have (nobody would want them for easy content but they’d be ridiculously OP for hard content), it’d encourage unhealthy playstyles like asking DPS or Tanks to take avoidable damage so the Healer can maximize their throughput in HPS and thus DPS.
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Well… you can’t do either. HPal is a cooldown-reliant healer but as we’ve found out since HFC, cooldowns are always the way to go. HPal sustained damage is generally in the 3k to 4k range unless you’re specifically NOT trying to heal (i.e. running Mad Paragon>Maraad’s or SB, running Seraphim>Awakening, etc.), but their burst damage during Wings+Ashen is so unbelievably high that no other healer can realistically compete. And as we established earlier; burst is, was, and always will be king.
Mistweaver does more raw HPS than HPal and even does comparable DPS; problem is, Mistweaver has no burst to speak of. It’s all sustained healing and sustained damage. That’s good, but it isn’t as good as Ashen Hallow basically making your raid invincible for 30 seconds while you do enormous burst damage and all other healers don’t even need to heal because of how much healing the Ashen does.
Disc Priest contributes a decent chunk of DPS (even more if said Disc is PIing the Venthyr Boomkin or Antlers MM hunter) as well as amazing cooldowns in Barrier, the current Disc Ramp, or last tier’s Spirit Shell. It’s comparable to HPal because it has enormous burst healing to and the ability to outright counteract mechanics.
Resto Shaman can do passable DPS if it specs into it but you still bring it because Spirit Link Totem is absolutely bonkers. As the saying goes, “nobody dies in Spirit Link.”
Resto Druid and HPriest are anomalies, and Resto Druid’s in an especially weird spot because it has the potential to do as much sustained DPS as its counterparts but sacrifices all of its healing to do so. HPriest will forever be that meme healer spec that isn’t actually bad but happens to be mutually-exclusive with a top 2 healer spec. But if you make either of them comparable to what HPal does, why would you bring HPal over one of these/bring one of these over HPal, depending on tuning?
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Long story short… NERF ROGUES
Mistweaver is frustrating because it SHOULD be a great melee damage healer (fistweaving) like it was in the expac it was introduced in, and they keep making it stink.
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Nerf dh actually
Mistreated was actually accurate, you should have kept it lol
This is really not that complicated.
I do not care about what would happen to Hpal representation after this. They have been dominant for 3 expansions now. Healer meta needs to change. It’s their turn to be weaker.
Problem is, now it actually IS good in terms of overall damage as far as healers go. It just has no burst; all of its healing outside of Revival is just extremely consistent, which is the polar opposite of HPal (extremely high damage and healing during cooldowns but next to nothing outside of cooldowns).
Which is why i would not use that as an example of rewarding the tank for the style of play. The design around vengeance was “tank takes damage, so the reward is for taking damage”
But smoothing damage intake is a much better system to reward. Had vengeance scaled from the amount of damage reduced during intake, the exponential increase of damage wouldn’t have happened, and it “probably” (or lets say might have) been a much better implementation.
This is just false. if its easy content, then the high end value of the playstyle doesn’t matter either.
In a vacuum yes, but if changes to enemy design followed, then no. a change like this would allow more unavoidable damage abilities to be used because there would now be value in it.
Dodging avoidable damage rewards the healer in not having to heal.
Right now, tanks and healers are not rewarded for doing the job beyond the min, while dps are always rewarded for doing the most. (of what their role is)
For example, another change that falls in line with rewarding the healer for healing is something like this.
I’m a druid so i will use a change on druid.
rejuv providing a buff to targets when ticking on targets at 95% or higher.
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I can’t let autocorrect win.
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What about bringing hpal down to mortal levels, and bringing all the other healers (except shaman) up to that level. Why does it need to be the extreme?
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even if they did get rid of the dps healer “meta”, druids would still be expected to do dps, since they don’t channel most of their core heals. open globals should be used to spread damage.
Also, I think resto druids are still decent with damage in m+…
the healing only “meta” from earlier classic versions of wow were so boring lol. this modern style is superior in every way imo.
THIS is what I want. Bring healer dps back down to how it was before. Its ridiculous now.
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I think I could settle for holy pally having to give up a lot of healing output to gain that dps, at least then they have to make a choice like the rest of us between healing and dpsing.
Though it would be nice to have good dps output as a healer.
Yeah I think you’re right. I think the issue is a lot of top resto druids early on were going balance spec for convoke damage - so the casual players started to do it to.
The issue being top groups perform so well and generally take a lot less avoidable damage then the average group so they could sit in boomkin for and damage.
When you are constantly healing, the damage outside of boomkin eclipse is abysmal, so unless you can go boomy and sit there for 10-15 seconds to use your eclipse, it was actually an overall dps loss to run it over feral.
Feral is much more smooth of a transition from healing to solid dps. Feral convok is also very respectable. But the difference is you get get bleeds going, swap in and out of feral to get more heals out, without losing major damage from your eclipse.
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As long as I’ve played there’s always been an offensive element to healing whether it be dps, CC, purges, or interrupts. With the emphasis on open world content even with the recent dps boost it still sucks going through the kill x quests compared to a dps or tank.
i know one thing i started to do was get better at moonfire uptime. It actually will beat sunfire in dps almost every scenario if you take the time to spend the globals.
druids were conditioned to only throw out sunfire, because BFA azerite gear made it feel stronger than it actually is.
I also think it’s a stat priority thing. if your vers/mastery sucks, then you can’t spend lots of time in eclilpse like you explained…I think druid is just one of those higher skill clap classes - gimmicks (like convoke) make it a little more accessible to players of all levels, but i still see lots of regrowth spammers from time to time lol. and once said gimmicks disappear,(azerite gear, eventually convoke, etc.) you see people complain about how weak the class feels.
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Yeah, definitely. But I think the issue still remains. If you take an excellent players and let them play RDruid, they’re going to do great, and probably put out great dps. But then take that same player and put them on Hpal (or venthyr shaman), and they’re going to do insane numbers.
My pocket healer is an hpal, and we compete for dps in most pulls. I’m usually ahead by the end, but not by much. Those millions of HP points he’s chewing through save tons of time off keys.
While other healers are capable of decent dps, they all pail in comparison to hpal. It’s an issue that needs adjusting.
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