Ah yes, you figured that out by doing an 2 hour deathknight intro quest.
Retail leveling is fast and smooth and makes you feel like you DON’T have to pay to level boost actually. Mounts are plentiful from Quests and Reps. And so is Gold. The only reason you’d need a token is if you want to buy something REALLY pricey or pay for a Carry, which… the majority of players never want or need to do.
Not really… That’s like saying Tony Hawk Pro Skater 1, is the same game as Tony Hawk Pro Skater 1+2. Their both obviously different despite both gameplays are similar.
Not as much as Wrath’s.
Wrath has things like separate spell and attack powers (as well attack powers for druids), armor penetration, the hit stat (remember that?), the defensive stats like dodge,block, parry, the resistances are still in the game at the time, Spirit, expertise, Resilience (PvP Resilience)…
Even the stats we have now were different in Wrath, given that any class at any point can use them. They don’t give essentially give attack/spell power like it does now with the STR, AGI and INT.
- Strength affects the Attack power for melee,
- Agility affects AP for ranged, as well the crits and dodge,
- and Intel affects the spell power, spell crit (yes, there’s separate crits back then), and increase the mana pool. Today, Attack Power and Spell power aren’t even a thing to consider since that’s all done under STR, AGI and INT, which for all intents and purposes, might as well just be a simple power stat.
Secondary stats are just your basic Crit (governing all the crits), Haste (governing all the haste, oh yea there’s separate hastes for attack and spell), Mastery, Versatility (A redundant stat that increases your damage done as well healing and less damage taken), and your Armor which is pretty much also redundant considering Stamina gives the same result; less damage taken. Who talks about the armor stat in retail?
Even if you include things like tertiary stats, Wrath still has more. And functionally, it’s more complex then Shadowlands.
That is not to say simplicity is bad of coarse. It’s more about how you execute it on whether it makes it bad or good. Like some of the FPS RPG’s. Bit off topic, but i wouldn’t consider Far Cry 6 even in the same league as Fallout 4, but their both still decent games.
Not all of them, and not the some of them i would consider them to be true RPG experiences like the Elder Scrolls games or so on.
Not exactly.
Retail scales the world/dungeons up with you pretty much whereever you go. And Shadowlands is no exception to this rule. While this is great for going anywhere, it does diminishes any chances of truely overpowering your enemy and making gear as well skill matter., considering every enemy goes down in the same amount of time regardless if your highly geared or not.
Wrath doesn’t have that and all the enemies you come across have their levels as well their power levels, static.
Unless you’re eluding to the idea that Wrath Classic has power scaling in it.
But by all accounts from everybody who played Wrath and people who played Shadowlands, Wrath does a much better job setting up who’s the threat is and motivating you to stop them, given that the threat, Arthas, was something that the fans or anybody who played Warcraft 3’s DLC come to learn and liked. And the writing for a lot of the stuff Wrath does, trumps Shadowlands by a mile. The Characters are doing things in a believable sense, the story doesn’t sacrifice its substance for style (most of the time, it’s still Warcraft), and the setting it takes place in is pretty amazing for WoW back then.
It doesn’t look pretty by today’s standards (though what is today standards with indie games out there?), but it certainly has a lot more passion and care put into it’s environments then today’s. There’s still people who are wow’ed by these zones in Northrend, both old and new.
While you’re not wrong for saying it’s subjective and correct in saying that retail has a story that motivates the player to complete it to the end… Wrath just simply executes it better.
But it doesn’t establishes what the death knights are or where they came from.
The DK starting zone from Wrath perfectly does that. And that’s what i was eluding too. DK’s are about… Death, bringing death to wherever they go, being killing machines to anybody they come across in order to serve their master, The Lich King (who was Arthas at the time). This also showcases the betrayal of the Ebon Blade and they set out to hunt Arthas.
All you done is tried to make it sound like that Retail has the same amount or same quality of things in Wrath, when we both know that isn’t really the case.
You’re pulling hairs.
AD&D has 6 stats. No one is saying it’s not an RPG because WoW has more.
But a lot of them do.
Because Stats don’t make RPGs. More Stats doesn’t make you “more of an RPG”.
Not really. I can smash stuff in the open world most people can’t even dream of killing in less than 10 seconds.
And that again doesn’t make it an RPG more than any other game. That’s not an RPG element. There’s no hard rules “An RPG has static mobs”.
Heck, even AD&D, mob hit points are determined by Xd8s or Xd10s.
They both do the same job : In the intro, you meet the baddy who makes a speech. One is Arthas, the other is the Jailer.
All subjective and irrelevant. The story being subjectively better or worse doesn’t make you more of an RPG or not.
Err… it actually does far more than Wrath. It’s literally establishes the lore behind Domination Magic that powers the Helm of Domination.
You’re right, Retail has much higher quality than Wrath.
BTW : still waiting on you to give us even 1 RPG element Wrath supposedly has that Retail doesn’t.
Name a single one.
This.
Classic wow is an MMO RPG.
Retail wow is diablo but with a warcraft skin.
Both are MMORPGs.
One just happens to have terrible graphics and slow gameplay, the other is Retail.
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One also happens to have actually good mechanic. the other is retail.
Yeah, that would be retail.
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mmm nah, Classic is a better game in terms of being an RPG, retail is more of an Action RPG like Diablo. Which if thats your thing fine, but classic is much closer to what a CRPG was/is then retail ever was/is
Yeah, it’s not like i went to a WoWWiki to look at the stats from wrath-- Oh wait. 
Were not talking about AD&D and i don’t see how this makes Retail looks like it has the same amount of stuff as Wrath does.
Doom doesn’t have stats the last time i check, it’s simply a run and gun demon ripper uppy frenzy thing.
You seem to acting as if i rely heavily on this point when it’s just simply one of my points on why Wrath is better RPG wise. 
So can literally everybody in Retail. Wrath doesn’t have this.
Feel free to tell us how it doesn’t make it an RPG then. I mean isn’t RPG’s about getting powerful and having dynamic scaling where the enemies can’t overlevel/underlevel runs counter to that?
But one does it better. Again, you seem to be thinking “Oh they have the same things, therefore, it’s the same quality”…
The Story being better or worse does make it more of an RPG or not because i don’t know if you noticed, but RPG’s rely on the story quite heavily? What you just told me is completely wrong. It’s not a subjective thing here as you seem to think.
Wern’t people at the time Shadowlands was current, said that was reconned or something?
You intentionally misrepresenting what i’ve said and building your silly strawman here, that is nothing short but childish coming from you as this argument here from you, hinges on me hating retail and praising Wrath which… I like them both. Shocker, it’s like i can like more then one thing. 
Saying the previous version of my favorite game is better then the current one doesn’t mean i hate the current version.
And don’t think i didn’t know you were copying my style, don’t think i didn’t notice. Not really sure why when you clearly don’t even understand why, let alone when, i call subjective things subjective, plus your childish comment assuming i hate retail above and you purposefully still refuse to see an RPG element out of the 3 i’ve given and my explanations for why Wrath’s not only has more RPG elements, but are executed better, tells me you’re more arguing with emotion then just logic.
If you still refuse to see my points, then the problem is on you.
Both games are the same quality RPG.
Retail is just Classic without the annoying lack of ressources making you wait 3 GCDs between each attack.
No. Not even close. There is so much diversity in CRPGs, that you cannot make this statement at all.
BTW : Diablo is a CRPG. CRPG literally means Computer Role Playing Game.
But as we’ve established, more or less stats doesn’t make an RPG.
Everything has more stats than Ultima IV. No one is going to say Ultima IV isn’t an RPG.
No, we’re talking RPGs, which AD&D is sort of the Grand daddy of most of them.
Is Cyberpunk 2077 an RPG or a Shooter ?
It’s over 50% of your post that’s about stats.
Exactly.
Yes, it does. You just said it did. A guy in ICC25H gear will smash any mobs in the open world, same as a guy in full M Fated gear.
Again, going to point to the Grand Daddy : AD&D has dynamic scaling based on dice roll. Not all Beholders are equal. Dynamic vs static scaling doesn’t make an RPG.
Yep, Subjective.
No, the story being subjective better or worse has no bearing on if a game is an RPG or not. Ultima VI has a very boring story to most. It’s still an RPG.
What did it retcon ? No one ever established the source of the helm of domination and its origins. Only that it was forged by the Legion and used to trap Ner’zhul. But no one ever told us where the plans came from or who invented the technique.
No, I’m just trying to make you realise it’s a dumb argument. Retail or Wrath, neither is more or less RPG than the other.
I don’t even know you or “your style”.
A Board game isn’t comparable to a Video game.
Board game’s rules are merely suggestions and nothing set in stone if you and the group so choose to. So even in your “grand daddy” of RPG’s, you can not have the scaling here as a choice. This is nothing comparable to Video games that has a strict set of rules that’s been coded into the program that you have to obey by considering it’s also set in a multiplayer setting and the devs for all intents and purfoses, are the GM’s.
Which is why were not talking about it.
You’re acting like it can’t be both of those things when it is both. Considering it’s made by the same guys who made The Witcher 3, Cyberpunk 2077 is both RPG and a Shooter. The Shooter part is just simply the foundation on how you play the game, just like how The Witcher 3 is a Kindof-Soulslike-Slashy-Thrid-Person RPG. (And yes, the devs did said Dark Souls was their influence)
I mean that’s your subjective opinion mate. I’ve made my point about 3 different points and you just chose to make it about stats instead of talking about the other points… 
And Classic doesn’t have this scaling stuff, you have a 100 people at different gearscores and skillsets, and a 100 people isn’t going to always succeed or kill enemies the same way or under the same time. And that’s the same enemy, different enemies with underleveled or overleveled ones, it varies.
Retail meanwhile, it would be like finding a needle in a haystack to be underpowered against your enemy.
No i didn’t, please don’t misrepresent and lie what i’ve said and actually read the comment… 
I’ve said, Wrath doesn’t have scaling.
I’m not just talking about raiders or m+'ers. I’m talking about casuals, new players, and everything else in between.
Refer to my comment what i’ve said about AD&D.
I mean if you want to be wrong…
It actually does. Have you actually played another RPG before? The story is pretty important element to an RPG.
Are you saying Shadowlands has no retcons at all?.. because it certainly did…
…Well you only made me realize your dumb arguments. No sane human being are going to think Shadowlands and Wrath are the same in terms of RPG elements and quality, and you’re acting like as if acknowledging they are different is a bad thing, or think that means we hate it, which is why you lie to us and say “No no! their the same thing!”…
I like Retail and I like Classic. But Classic is clearly more of an RPG then Retail.
…And yet you’re saying things like “Subjectively” to me, but not understanding what i’ve said wasn’t subjective at the time.
A board game ?
- Pool of Radiance
- Curse of the Azure Bonds
- Secret of the Silver Blades
- Pool of Darkness
- Eye of the Beholder I
- Eye of the Beholder II
- Eye of the Beholder III
- Champions of Kr…
well you get the point.
So I’m confused why you think more stats makes you more of an RPG. Is Cyberpunk more of an RPG than Wrath ? It has more stats.
No, it’s wc -c assessment.
Doesn’t matter.
But you said Wrath allowed geared players to overpower world content. So does Retail. They’re the same.
A casual in full Cypher Gear in ZM is doing 60k DPS because the Cypher procs are idioticly insane.
Dude, if you want to claim “better story” is not subjective, you’re completely lost.
Providing lore for stuff that didn’t have it is not a retcon.
People misuse the word.
Only because you’ve made up your mind on some things while being quite ignorant of the topic in general.
Yes, I used a word in the English language correctly.
You didn’t invent it.
I see instead of actually reading why a board game isn’t comparable to a video game since i did actually explain it, you pretend it didn’t exist and proceeded to still use this non-argument.
D&D is typically known as a board game. And it’s mostly due to the fact there’s more board games then video games. (since all you’ve listed was 7, the last one was tentative since it sent me to Valorant and LoL rankings for some reason)
RPG’s typically have tons of stats, as it was typical of the RPG’s back in 90’s and 2000’s and some games at 2010’s.
Yes, some RPG’s like Dark souls can exist without having tons of stats. But you’re acting as if one doing RPG elements better means it’s a better game quality wise, when those are two different things. Dark Souls is a better game then Wrath, But Wrath has more stats then Dark Souls.
Here’s my issue with your argument, it revolves on saying that RPG’s don’t need stats, story and so on to make it an RPG pretty much. Even going by your logic, Wrath and Shadowlands are still different in terms of whatever definition you’re going by here. If it’s world interaction, Wrath still does this better.
And this whole argument revolves on you thinking “If A is more X then B, then that means B is less or not X”… Both are still RPGs. It’s just simply that one does it better then the other.
Not sure honestly, i can tell you right away it does have these conversation scenes where you can pick dialogue, there is stats for weapons to adjust as well armor pieces, perks and so on… but better then Wrath? That’s tentative to say the least on that one.
But if your position is that Cyberpunk 2077 has more RPG elements then Wrath, then you’re also saying it has way more RPG elements then Shadowlands.
Denying isn’t going to help you. You have made it about stats and you’re surprised that it’s about stats. I’m not going to be held accountable for something you’ve done. 
It actually does matter, but you’re feel to have this wrong opinion.
Their not, i’ve explained why their not the same and you’re just simply refusing it. So you can stop being disingenuous and lying now, because you’re honestly making yourself look like a child with this “NUH UH! THEY THE SAME” trope…
That’s no longer casual.
Says the liar who thinks retail and classic are the same game in the most childish way possible, now telling me i’m the one who’s lost because i recognized their both different games…
I’ve provided a video on proving there’s retcons in Shadowlands.
I’ve been more open minded then you by recognizing that Wrath and Shadowlands are different games and one does RPG elements and better. I yet to even see you explain how their the same outside of your fanboying for retail with the most shallow arguments i’ve ever heard that you must be either ignorant (which you’re now projecting on to me) or just trolling.
You don’t know how RPG’s work, do you? So what are you doing in this conversation if you’re refusing to understand?
I’m sure you feel that way, but reality says otherwise considering that thing you said “subjectively” to, wasn’t subjective.
Because I didn’t bring up board games.
I brought up video games.
Do you know how many AD&D games are video games ? Like there are vastly more AD&D video games than Warcraft games. VASTLY more.
Or none at all. Or just a few.
Lots of 90s RPG had very little barebones stats.
Do you even remember what stats you had in Chrono Trigger ?
Better or worse is not the question.
Is it more an RPG is.
Don’t move goalposts.
Pretending 50%+ of your post isn’t about stats doesn’t make it so either. All you talk about is stats stats stats.
The subjective quality of a story doesn’t disqualify or qualify a game as an RPG.
The quality of a story is entirely, 100%, factually, Subjective.
D&D is typically known as a board game.
I could literally care less, but i’m sure your whataboutism is a doozy…
Okay, and? Are you saying the stats back then wern’t a lot back then and are only seen as not enough like it is in today? Even if the RPG game back in the day has 10 stats, that would often be seen as a lot by the standards of the 90’s. We both know 10 stats isn’t much by today’s standards because that’s what time does. Compared to Wrath even in Today’s standards, it still has a lot more stats then Shadowlands.
I grew up with the Playstation 2 and a Dell computer that plays Simcity 3k and other Maxis titles at the time.
I don’t know where you get “moving the goalposts” vibe from, you seem to be rather quick, defensive and emotional from your intentional misread. When i said “better then”, i was obviously referring to the RPG elements. I don’t know how you got confused that with quality when i wasn’t even talking about quality. Again, i’m not going to be held accountable by you not doing basic reading.
You doing the “No u” isn’t going to help you, so i recommend you stop being dodging responsibility, because by your own design, you made it about stats. Continuing to pin the blame is childish on your part.
Again, you’re free to have a wrong opinion. Also you don’t realize you saying subjective quality, doesn’t make it so, even if you repeat it over and over again, it wouldn’t change anything. Were not talking about your subjective feelings, were talking about objective writing that makes a game a better RPG or not.
So why you believe their both the same if the story is subjective then? Why do you care about what somebody says which is a better RPG then if you think the story is subjective? By your own logic, you kind of demonstrated you don’t have a reason to be in this conversation if think the story is subjective.
No, it’s just an RPG system, one that powers multiple video games and table-top or Pen and Paper (not board) games.
Table-Top / Pen and Paper RPGS =/= Board Games btw. The more you know.
Then why don’t you care less ? If you could. You should.
Dude, this convo is going nowhere, like all the “Classic is an RPG” bot you have failed to even bring up a single element Classic has that Retail doesn’t.
You’re trying to hard spin into some kind of “Wrath has a better story!” which has nothing to do with the topic. Further engaging with you is futile. You have no idea what you’re even talking about, you keep calling AD&D a board game for cripe’s sake.
I’m sure you think that, but were still not talking about board games.
I care more about this conversation about Wrath being a better RPG then Shadowlands then you telling me all these D&D video game spinoffs.
By your own design, you made it impossible to have a debate.
I have, you refused and still go like “DUH YOU DIDN"T BRING ANY POINTS UP”. It’s like i’m agruing with a childish console fanboy, trying to protect their favorite gamebox by lying about it and saying “IT’S THE SAME AS PC!!” …
It objectively does, but your free to be childish.
You’re free to deny reality mate, story has tons to do with RPG’s…
Projection much?
Because it is. And i’ve explained why it’s not remotely relevant to this topic.
Pen and Paper RPG.
Table Top RPG.
Not board games.
Irregardless. Pool of Radiance is a CRPG. The fact you keep ignoring the facts means this is futile and over.
Dude, Monopoly is a board game.
AD&D is not.
You’re not even a gamer, WTF. You don’t know what a friggin’ board game is.
You two might aswell get a room at this point.
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