That is a strawman argument and this has nothing to do with loot. Rewards cap at 10.
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Right, you’re part of the other side: Score go up = good.
You’ll always encounter a new wall in some fashion. Why are some walls okay but others aren’t? They both impede your progress.
I think the timer is fine if the count is less. In SL we used to skip the part before the second boss, and here we have to clear a ton of mobs while also clearing more trash in the first section.
I prefer the SL version for that.
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Yep. The first time I ran that dungeon this season I was shocked at NOT getting to stealth to 2nd boss. I was shocked at all the trash we had to clear before the 2nd boss.
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SL Blizz also didn’t really care about M+ balance, so there’s that.
What do you propose? Requiring every dungeon to be fully cleared for 100% trash with timers being increased to compensate?
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For HOA, if an adjustment is made, decrease timer and increase enemy forces values.
HOA does not appear to be too hard per current top end keys.
Gambit / Eco-dome are on the easy side.
Even if Blizz made it easier, people will hit a new wall, and the complaints are back on.
(And if it’s vastly easier, think Junkyard, COS, SMBG) lol.
Wait, you’re not trolling?
Why would you make a key easier needlessly so? When people’s numbers can’t go up by 1 because of a lack of something?
What separates HOA from other keys where they run into the same issue? At maybe at a single higher key level.
Sure people don’t have enough dps… (which isn’t an issue to change.)
Dungeon is too long (which, isn’t even the longest dungeon in pool.)
I don’t mind dungeons to be harder, but that should be based on key level. If I take a 12 HoA it should be roughly in the same difficulty as other dungeons at a 12. Right now it feels like an outlier because of the amount of trash you need to pull for the given timer.
Like you can lower the HoA key timer with the current trash, and all it does it make it so it’s average completion level will be lower than other dungeons. I rather have the expectation of a key level to be relatively close.
You’re constantly talking that things shouldn’t be easier, but you’re forgetting the relative difficulty. Nobody is asking for the key to be easy, just asking for it to be in line with the rest. The “infinite” scaling of key levels will do the rest.
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I agree.
And based off top-end keys, it doesn’t feel out of bounds.
Have you played those top end keys? My experience is that on a +10~11 it’s harder to complete in time vs other dungeons, while this dungeon features a higher amount of big pulls than most other dungeons, while also having a higher amount of casts.
In terms of pull size it feels like ara-kara, while each pull feels like it has 2x more casts that need interrupting.
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Nah, just seeing what others have done. HOA doesn’t seem like an outlier based on what people do.
I like the dungeon because of its frantic pacing heh.
So much going on due to timer forcing people to combine lots of stuff.
But based off what players are capable of? it seems in line with everything else.
At best? nerf everything by 10%, (so 1 key level higher to all.) Then it would be on the easy side. The margins are that slim.
I failed a 13 HOA with only 2 deaths. Other keys have a higher margin for error. (I guess tank was also rather conservative with pulls.)
Overtime by 2mins ish.
The big trash mobs need to give more %. The gargoyles have like a bazilion hp and give what, 2%? They’re basically a mini boss each.
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Short of dropping more mobs in line with an organic route (extra development so unlikely), you would almost have to increase value. Most of the issues I run into are significant time being wasted by doing some random route, and almost every dungeon it’s different.
That’s a lot of ground to cover for needing to basically pull everything.
This is objectively untrue and to this day some people recall m+ as one of the good/best parts of shadowlands and still make comparisons to it for reference as to what can be difficult, technical, complex, or fun, without being overwhelming.
You hold too many assumptions about me, what I think, and what I want out of m+.
I do high keys for the fun of it, not for io or title. I think many people that play long enough eventually feel the same about it. Score go up is a consequence of what I’m doing and not why I’m doing it. If I’m doing this for fun and me and bunch of other people are like “this isn’t fun,” we’re entitled to our opinions about that and this open forum is to levy criticisms about it and how we think it could be improved.
You can hand wave all of that and make all these assumptions and come back every single reply with something toxic to say while missing the point entirely. You’re arguing in bad faith and so I am done responding to you with this reply.
Right this was the case for streets too before it was adjusted it was a 38 or 39 min timer in SL and then seasons start was 34 iirc. You have to go so out of your way to pull trash and I know the dungeon is non-linear base line for the starting area but I mean you are playing a roomba trying to kill everything in the dungeon with a pretty unforgiving timer. And then the last mini is as difficult as a boss that forces a specific team composition which I find to be hostile gameplay for players. I similarly find any dungeon that made grippy hands mandatory (i.e. s1 version of nw) unfun, because your groups become inflexible and with key level more and more exclusionary. Forcing a rogue, bm hunter, or warrior into every single halls key for their healing reduction debuff because of how overwhelming and time consuming this mini is, is not good gameplay design imo.
It’s not like you can kick his heal and the ads he is draining are quite healthy. Spread cleaving them can be an effective strategy for reducing the overall health he will heal over the course of the fight but then again your comp is restricted down more to like an spriest or boomkin.
I’d rather see them shorten this section or create a different form of counter play like to stop the heal (soaking the beams like last boss maybe) or removing the affix from the ads that spawn. iirc they didn’t have an fixate in SL. That is just a new thing to make the fight even more unnecessarily chaotic so that the tank can’t hold threat on them.
They almost certainly are, just stop responding to them atp.
This is basically one of my key points. You have to go so out of your way to pull everything. You’re not just running this dungeon, you’re here to kill everything with a health bar. I really begin to think blizz didn’t have a plan here. They could have just thought hypothetically “if this pull takes 2 min and htis one takes 2 min and the boss takes 2.5 min and this… then that’s 4 minutes over” or they did and assumed we could just pull even more than that despite their constant non stop attempts to inhibit our ability to do fun big pulls by adding a litany of overlapping mechanics to trash that are incredibly lethal and far more frequent than player defensives. Watching paladins run out of defensives on trash here is an abysmal feeling, welp I hope they got it figured out cause idk what their plan is atp.
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SL we had the same dungeons for pretty much the entire time until Fated came around and they experimented with stuff, then we had endless complaints about lower karazhan.
Did stuff get easier as time went on? Yes, both in player skill and actual tuning.
Can players fail upwards higher as a result? also yes.
Also like no one praises Shadowlands for m+… the only thing praised as good semi-consistently is DF S3 because it became turbo nerfed and number went up.
Something will stop your ascent, why is one issue worse than another?
Why are you complaining specifically about HOA when another dungeon on a different key level also stops you from timing? Having that nerfed by 10% would make your number go up just the same.
If your group can consistently meet the timer, you wouldn’t be complaining, just saying.
I can’t even properly hit all of them with Rain of Fire because the benches literally block me from using it where I can hit them all.
Inquisitor Sigar (this mini boss) is definitely a challenge, even at very low keys. What’s frustrating is that this guy is right towards the end of the key, and how long it takes to get him down can determine timing it or not after all the time and effort to get this far in the dungeon.
Anyone have good strategies for killing the adds as quickly as possible? Do folks take out one quadrant of the pews area first and then move to the next, while the tank keeps Sigar aggro’d and trying to help out when they can?
Drag to like the furthest corner away from adds. Zerg boss.
Adds die to passive cleave.