If I were a developer, no.
If I were Activision, yes.
For better or for worse, that’s how we got LFR.
How are those MMOs going that require players to group up for content? Those that are still online I mean.
I’m saying at the end of the day it has to hurt a little to be the guys who did stuff like the MoP scenarios, WoD garrison, BFA islands/warfronts in that you tried to make something “new” and everyone just hates it.
Where is the incentive to keep experimenting with content then? I’ve even seen people say the Shadowlands Tower is already dead on arrival because its just “new islands”.
Mythic+ has been the most successful endeavor in a long time and even then people voice their disdain for it. If all you can really do without rocking the boat is raids, quests and pvp I don’t see the leap to funnel people into doing those as much as possible.
You’re right that the problem is Blizzard trying a “one size fits all” approach, but not because they’re trying to appeal to too many groups. They used to do a very good job of providing content for everyone, by…providing various forms of content. Now, they’re just trying to push everyone into doing the same content, rather than allowing players to pick what they find fun. “Trying to appeal to everybody” isn’t the problem, their half-baked effort to extend minimal content by pushing players through it whether they like it or not is the problem.
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I didn’t hate MOP Scenarios, I actually found it nice to have isolated stories that you could complete with smaller groups.
I didn’t hate WoD Garrisions, I was just angry that’s ALL there was to do in WoD if you didn’t raid or PvP. It wasn’t the garrisions people hated, it was the shallowness of WoD that colored it poorly.
Warfronts were a neat nostalgia trip, but really only make sense in the idea sense of being at war with someone. Islands were fun, I kinda hope they keep the same kinda content… just… not with Azerite.
It’s not that the systems they make are bad. Alot of them can be fun distractions.
The problem is it’s all they have. For the expansions these things were added into. 
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You’re right, but it also proves my earlier point regarding “make them do all the things”.
The WoW dev team’s holy grail right now is endlessly repeatable content. It’s why we have Mythic+ , island expeditions, AP grinds (we’re getting another in Shadowlands, huzzah!), etc.
What they need to get is that content is only repeatable if it progresses, in story or difficulty. Players want to see something new, whatever their position is on group v. solo, PVE v. PVP, etc.
Torghast is trying to be a procedurally generated dungeon, which is new every time you step into the instance. We’ll see if it works out.
“If it don’t make dollars, it don’t make sense.”
-Ion, probably
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I think what kills me and leaves me biased is I dropped BFA for a bit and meandered around a bunch of other MMOs and I can say WoW’s content cycle is vastly superior to a lot of games. ESO and GW2 for example you might get 1-2 raids a year if you are lucky, and that might just be 3-4 bosses if that. Something like XIV has more consistent content, but it’s extremely static with raiding being a very clear capstone activity.
WoW is probably the only MMO out now that has consistent PvE updates and a decent PvP option available to it.
So I’m hopeful for Shadowlands if only because nothing else has attempted to capture that.
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Absolutely agree. It’s a very similar thing with the grinding and pathfinder achievement.
They create a facade of having a good volume of content, by forcing reps and diversity amongst a very limited volume of content.
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I take your point that in a vacuum where profits don’t matter you would want to develop exactly the game you want to play…but this is a business. One of the things I appreciate about your involvement in these discussions is that; despite our positions being in opposition to each other you recognize the reality of business vs personal feelings in design decisions.
Thanks.
And, for what it’s worth, I actually don’t have a problem with LFR being in the game (although I’d like to see it improved, but that’s a whole other BOW).
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It would be nice if LFR was something that taught mechanics instead of burn boss for free gear.
Like if mechanics were more important, but damage/healing/tanking requirements were still lax. Something that actually prepares people softly for Normal instead. One thing I give FFXIV credit for is having universal markers for things like stack/spread so it reinforces that behavior in it’s playerbase without needing excess communication.
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Acting like a jerk you should expect to be called a jerk. If you use your supposed “achievements” in this game as an excuse to treat other people like trash, and you think they should be grateful for the opportunity to be trashed by you, then yes, you are lacking social skills.
It’s not elitist for a group to expect you to meet whatever standards they have set to join. It’s elitist for that group leader to whisper insults to applicants that fail to meet those standards. Or you could stop acting like a jerk in your interactions with other people, who are under no obligation to meet the standards you claim to hold for yourself.
This is a videogame. It is one step over watching television as a hobby. If you use it to pass judgment over humanity and find humanity wanting, that’s a you problem.
Sure, you and Elae can use a definition of “elitism” that is flattering to you. That doesn’t change any of the issuies involved.
Thinking you deserve more and better content and stuff, and other people who are necessarily unworthy deserve less or none at all is the perfect illustration of elitism, one we see in the forums all the time.
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Blizzard can’t do that because the forum blows up when something like that happens, you have to remember that players here rage about a regular mythic dungeon.
Oh I’m aware, just dreams. Wildstar had a great introductory dungeon that was literally just pass/fail to teach mechanics like avoiding fire and interrupting. Was a great ACTUAL tutorial dungeon instead of just being something you sleep through for XP and gear. I don’t understand how players are suppose to actually transition from being questing solo players into raiders with how they have removed anything that would help bridge the gap. People just luck out with titanforging and roll the dice trusting on addons.
The issue is that there actually is a place for tourist mode difficulty. And tourist mode difficulty is not a good place to teach people how to raid, especially not the grandmas and occasional players who belong there.
A “tutorial mode” would be great for that, but devs don’t think people should get help in the game to learn to play, so it will never happen. And sudden death for tourists is going to chase them out of raiding altogether.
Certainly, people shouldn’t act like jerks. And I’m not saying that anyone should be insulted based on their gear level.
But the Venn diagram for “elitist” and “jerk” are not one-to-one, despite them being used interchangeably.
Well, Elae used one from Wikipedia, while mine is more in line with PhilosophyTerms. Good try, though!
And actually, it does sort of change the issues involved. Words have meaning, and while you may use the word “elitism” to describe a behavior, it may not actually be that thing. And misuse of these words can cause issues.
As an example:
So, if a player advocates more content for casual players, and claiming that the “hard core” community are running the game… that player is an elitist?
Also, let’s consider the irony of saying this:
And then this:
Okay I don’t want to seem rude, but is there really a place for tourist mode?
Is it really justifiable to assume every player will see all encounters with zero effort and being heavily guided? Like at the end of the day can’t you have SOME expectation of players working on improving for something?
Stuff like proving grounds never should’ve ended, there should be some drive to improve at a game you consistently play in at least the smallest way.
No, you’re right. Without effort, there is no achievement, and therefor no fun. This is true even within the context of a video game.
One of the better arguments for LFR is that, as counter-intuitive as it may seem, it really is an achievement for some. A “max effort lift”, so to speak.
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I level 2 toons to 60 without being in a guild and only joining a group for a few instances. Yeah pugging the dungeons was such a pain I didn’t do any with my second toon but it was completely possible to derp around solo. Yes, there wasn’t any endgame and if BC hadn’t come out my time with WoW would have ended. Some of us have no desire to join the raiding grind but still think we deserve access to the content. I’ve got nothing against guilds, and think blizz could do more by them, but forced socialization would kill the rest of my desire to play this game (Pathfinder killed the other half). Maybe the so called “community” needs to ponder whether they need to change to be more inclusive rather than have blizz force others to play with them. 
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That’s your opinion. The word “elite” defines a great player. The word “elitist” defines one who thinks the elite deserve better and non-elite deserve worse, and acts like a jerk about it.
We do see “casuals” or “new players” saying that even though they don’t raid, they think raiders deserve better loot than they’re getting, and casuals get too much free stuff handed to them. I call these people “forum alts of raiders on the other account they keep so their raid buddies won’t know what they’re up to on the forum”.
It’s true. Words do have meaning. And people tend to call themselves flattering names and describe themselves in appealing ways, even though others might look and say they appear clueless how they come across.
No, that is nothing like what I said. So… you’re bad at strawman arguments?
And okay. I see you disagree with me that using your videogame achievements as a basis for passing judgment over humanity is be a bad thing.
It wouldn’t even be a problem if there weren’t so many threads, posts, and posters trying to justify removal or nerfing of content for casuals with concurrent increases to elite content resources.
If you want to play a small game that is fading out, continue to try to justify, justify, justify. When only the elite are left, there will be insufficient players to pay to develop that content for you.
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