people forget it was already infested with Old God corruption and the NE chose to live in it anyways. The blessing in Cata always seemed more like a bandaid that an actual fix.
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Problem is she lacks the moral authority to create a better system, let’s look at what she’s done in her unlife. Pursuid vengeance to the same extreme as Arthas with Malganis, created a blight that killed the living and undead and seemingly and subtly pushed putress and Varimathras to do the Wrathgate situation, pulled many more souls from the afterlife and bound them into rotting bodies, used the blight personally upon more cities and towns, attempted to step free will completely from two undead Koltira and Derrick, attempted to enslave Eyir, used the blight on enemies and allies alike in lordaeron, burning teldrassyl, and started a world war for the sake of racking up a high death count on both sides.
Except we all understand her position, as she clearly states in above mentioned cinematic that she intends to break the cycle and remake it. Blizzard definitely didn’t leave that part out.
The majority of us just don’t believe her means justify her questionable ends.
Her reply I think would that morality is a construct of the current, broken system.
My reply is that morality is relative anyway. Tying it to the real world, there simply is a reason that we don’t all support invading places like Saudi Arabia and Iran and India immediately to end what I consider to be some very abhorrent behaviors(child brides, arranged marriages, women being treated as essentially slaves etc.) Because we recognize our morals dont comport with theirs and that does not make them evil. It makes them different.
You might argue your list of bad things she did defies that and is so abhorrent that any “Reasonable” person would see it that way.
I would just simply say that as repugnant as you may find something, morality is fundamentally relative and someone else may not find it so.
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There is no relativity to the morality of this, when countries commit genocide it is never viewed as less than evil, there is a point that evil is clearly able to be defined, you just merely view it as moral relativity.
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I am not saying this to be nasty but I don’t think you understand relativity. Morals being relative is obvious. should now talk about abortion to prove the point?
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That would be a fruitless argument, as you can probably infer what my opinion on that subject would be.
Putting aside how this has anything to do with projection, the claim by wrongdoers that “it wasn’t me” is commonplace. Little kids often say “he made me do it” when caught. Sylvanas is making exactly the same argument; there is no free will therefore she is not responsible. (By her logic, what she’s saying is also fate, so her words are empty.)
The point is you are suggesting morals are black and white. That there is some sort of universal truth. A set standard of some sort. When obviously there isnt. The only way that is true is if God exists and he sets the standard. If you believe that then great I appreciate your faith and we can’t discuss this because we come from very different places on the subject and you can’t sway faith so its a moot discussion.
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Very true, nothing is more dangerous or beautiful then faith. But as much as I disagree with your opinion, I know we come from two different outlooks on this subject and I do respect your opinion. Just know I am not intending for my words to sound like an attack, and there are things in my opinion that are truly evil to which I could recommend some good books that detail such abhorrent yet very real events.
But I do respect your opinion nonetheless even if our views differ.
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I often miss material relevant to these conversations (from books, interviews, etc) so I was wondering if this was stated somewhere or just inferred.
I believe you are correct. The Jailer isn’t portrayed as a character that is likely going to create a system full of nuance and fairness for everyone. I just didn’t know if the specifics of “maw but everywhere” was outlined.
I have actually found it equal parts maddening and amazing how much of the important information in Shadowlands hasn’t been shared. Most of the things we have inferred are based on aesthetics and judgments through our own personal views.
He’s “clearly” (my own bias) not a good guy because he tortures, twists, and destroys souls. He presides over an ugly wasteland of torment. He has some dude (coughPrimuscough) hanging in a room from chains, and that guy said he was tortured that into giving him Frostmourne. Heck we even see him oversee creation of a new mourne blade. And we know through Frostmourne how much havoc was wrought on Azeroth.
However, we don’t know why the Jailer was banished, we don’t know what his role was prior to banishment, we don’t know who/what disabled the Arbiter, and we don’t know what those sketchy brokers have planned. Not knowing what his end-game is wouldn’t be surprising. That’s not normally an early reveal. We don’t even know his beginning game though. Denathrius (not a very reliable source) claimed the Jailer was reclaiming what was his. The Jailer clearly had some argument that persuaded members of the Kyrian to openly defect.
I don’t think he’s a good guy. But I do think - whether intentionally or not - Blizzard has left some amount of wiggle room with respect to how they will portray these details.
Some part of me likes to think the Jailer owed the Brokers money from losing bets, refused to pay, so they called in a few chits and got him banished. While in the Maw he concocted a convoluted plan requiring trillions to be obliterated just to enact his vengeance. In their dying moments we find out that he bet heavily against the denizens of Azeroth in the War of the Ancients and everything after - Frostmourne etc - was him hurting the people he bet against and trying to destroy the Mafia-esque Brokers. It just makes me laugh.
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This is why I don’t see the jailer creating a fair or utopian afterlife, he has been willing to torture souls to insanity and servitude which is where the impression of maw but everywhere comes from. But you are right, we don’t know his reasoning or past transgressions but I doubt it was anything noble or nuanced, cause I believe blizz doesn’t want to try and write him nuanced besides being the bad guy. Bfa I’m certain made them want to avoid anything murky.
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Are you saying this expansion is an anarcho manifesto? Is Sylvanas an Anarcho-Syndicalist?
I’m calling her a nihilist because she sees the only escape through all of this is by killing everyone and everything including the very system of death itself. She seems to consider life vile, repugnant and cruel.
Why they are trying to take a character that once was considered brilliant and have serve something like the Jailer puts me in Anduons mindset when he tells her to just look around her. I can’t see her being this blind so either the Jailer has warped her somehow or a universe that is the Maw but she has freedom to choose is now fine for her.
One of her main mottos is abandon hope. I think she may not think things can be any better than that. It is a reoccurring theme with her and some others we have faced.
It’s telling that Sylvanus, in her pitch to convince Anduin to join her, failed to elaborate on what she intended to do and how she intended to do it. Like, if her/the Jailers plan was to hijack the Ardenweald reincarnation system so everyone gets reincarnated into worlds of their choice, and the only reason to not do this is “because Purpose”, then you’d think she’d try to convince him with that, no?
you are all ignoring the fact that The jailer wants to destroy Azeroth and use it’s soul as a power for a weapon so that HE can reshape the universe.
Sylvanas sees an opportunity to rebuild the universe but make it fair, or, she sees an opportunity to unite Azeroth’s strongest heroes against the Jailer and lured us all in the Maw to fight him.
Either way, at the bare minimum I’d rather it be her with this power than the Jailer because she has shown us that she has the spark of hope and humanity and he doesn’t.
She’s the lesser of the evils.
The Jailer seems to be on a mix of a revenge fantasy of killing/torturing/dominating everything. It is a major leap of logic to think his end game is going to be good for anyone but him.
Sylvanas is at best a lieutenant for him. I’d imagine Hela for instance ranks higher. Although she may have convinced herself she is doing this to help people get past the cruel brief spark of life I don’t think the Jailer cares what she thinks so long as she follows orders and is useful. To him I think she is eminently disposable.
I don’t see either of them rebuilding things. Rather I see them both wanting to tear everything down no matter who or how many it hurts along the way. They seek the power to enforce their will over their reality which to the Jailer seems to mean all of creation.
Why Sylvanas thinks for a second she will not be less free after the Jailer has won and no longer needs her seems foolish which does not fit her character unless she has truly given up all hope and thinks he is her only chance no matter how bad that is.
Of course we will come in and save the day, and maybe she will betray him and help us. If we didn’t and the Jailer won I doubt Sylvanas would fare much better than being forged into a weapon for Helya. Howling for all eternity in torment as her soul is forged and dominated into a prison.
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Very well said. Much like the masterful handling of Illidan and Garrosh, I expect our Dark Lady will be subject to a similar story arc revealing her grand and noble intentions compared to our shallow actions.
I still think back to that day on the filthy elven isle when that giant abomination of a weed was burning. I could hear Azeroth sing in triumph. It’s a warm memory that carries me to sleep each night.
For For Dark Lady!!
For the true horde!!!
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I always thought nihilism was a philosophical belief that no moral premise can be proven true or false (like the existence of God which philosophers have debated for millennia) ergo no moral argument can be proven true or false.
Nowhere is it more true than in the universe of Warcraft where even canon truths can be changed if the writers want to fit a new narrative.
Why even try to apply any morality to WoW lore? Sylvanas wants to tear the whole thing down… I’m ok with that.
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She did choose those things yes, but there seems to be more to it like Alleria was supposed to get the job but she turned it down. Sylvanas could have felt obligations to take on the family job and this could have restricted some choices in her life. It seems like she was maybe forced to choose between what she wanted and what she felt was an obligation and that can put her between a rock and a hard place.
but her trauma was not getting the clean death she deserved, being turned into a banshee against her will, being forced the kill her own people, and then getting saddled with a kingdom of corpses everyone wants to wipe out. That alone is enough.