And still. The Alliance are decidedly winning at that point.
Not losing.
Not almost destroyed.
Not whatever you want to call it.
#WinningOnAllFronts
That was represented in the Scarlet Crusade who were, guess what, hostile to the Alliance. And outnumbered. And not Alliance.
Until, ya know, they left. Back before any of this. And they never rejoined. And none of that was caused by the Horde.
Seriously, get back on your draenie paladin, Phae.
To give you an example, from a player who got to know both sides before Cata, yes, Horde was really scabies at 60 to play, but the way Cata was handled was outrageous to say the least.
You had wonderful quest areas and really deep quests, you had beautiful quest linesâŠthat werenât necessarily connected but still told a coherent story.
It would be like if you were given a classic car, a wonderful car, then a mechanic comes by and says that he has to fix something, when he comes back you get a dented, absolutely bad something back, which is also half-finished and just about to drive.
The Horde has been complaining about this experience for over 6 years, the Alliance has had it for 9 years now, this year itâs going to be 10, I can understand that, many areas of the Alliance end up as losers, just about averted total annihilation, but still lost, why would anyone choose this faction as a new player when the Horde story makes it seem strong?
Iâm not in favor of wiping out the horde as it is now. If you look upstairs again, youâll see it: I said the Alliance would not be merciful this time, they should not. It shouldnât forgive, it shouldnât be lenient, that would mean that the Alliance would continue to fight, but so would the Horde, and then exactly the scenario would have happened that prevented Varian from (mop) at that time, the Alliance would be completely down, but so would the Horde, and both sides would have to rebuild, and not just one.
So the same what Wrathion said about the Horde in 5.3, you see for yourself how little thatâs worth.
Oh, I didnât know that all the survivors who wanted to meet relatives from Lordaeron in the book before the storm, undead relatives, were actually scarlet, I forgot.
oh moment, wait. No, you just have no idea.^^
You learned in Classic that all survivors of the scourge at that time, if they had not fled with Jaina to Theramore, went to Stormwind. Thatâs why many Lordaeronians live in Stormwind, and many Arathis, and all the human kingdoms lost inhabitants to Stormwind
Since when has been driven out, involuntarily, conquered, driven to the undead, a voluntary departure?
I donât know, have you ever played Cata, of course the Forsaken conquered Stromgarde, revived the prince who did it, drove many to the Undead, that he finally renounced Sylvanas was something the Forsaken couldnât foresee, but they were the ones who finally conquered the city. And if it werenât for the death knights, we would still have an undead galen there.
You donât have to, but acknowledge realities, maybe I misunderstood, I wasnât saying that the night elves are more right, I was just reminding why the outcry is so great among this people and why there are many fans - probably more fans than other whole races have - who are disappointed in what blizz did to the night elves.
I mean, even most of the alliance people donât have such a large fanbase.
There are more fans, so the reaction is more extreme because they feel betrayed. And accordingly, the longer it takes, the harder it will be to appease their hurt feelings, the harder it will be to appease their hurt feelings, and precisely because it canât happen the way they sometimes want it to, some of them, theyâll be disappointed in the characters.
Thatâs why I said yes :What good are hero characters to you if they donât inspire fans anymore, I tell you, nothing.
In other words, it doesnât help you much - no - nothing at all that they still have these heroic characters when itâs just running out in frustration because blizzard Teldrassil will never be able to tackle and solve to the extent it deserves. Just remember Stormwind, and what kind of reaction that caused, this time blizzard will not be able to pull something like that out of the hat because itâs an MMO, although such a hardness would be necessary after Teldrassil.
Maybe I have made myself clearer now.
No, you just forgot that they werenât in Lordaeron. They had fled a kingdom that effectively ceased to be.
Since when is that what caused Alterac to leave the Alliance?
Oh right, itâs not.
But they left Stormwind as soldiers to reclaim their homeland, the Forsacks opposed them, so, thatâs the point here: Lordaeronians tried to reclaim their homeland after being driven out of southshore of the whole foothill. And the Western Pestland is still part of the Kingdom of Lordaeron to which they once belonged.
Iâm talking about ARATHI, not Alterac!
iÂŽm not phae.
And should I really go further, you canât discreet me and doubt my credibility because I sometimes mention points that other players mention and you donât like, I donât agree with Phae everywhere, but I can say that the Cata deal was a dirty deal without it giving me cancer.
I can also say that the Horde had a dirty deal for the first 6 years, doesnât hurt me either, because itâs facts that I just acknowledge because it was.
But apparently most WOW players now lack that ability to think outside the box. Recently, Iâve been accused of being biased, and Iâve been arguing against this one issue all the time: bias, and taking the other perspective to show how that comes over with a mirror, perspective the other position.
I said before, this bias view ruins the forum permanently.
So youâre argument is mutually assured destruction, but Iâm unclear how that would be satisfactory in any way? Especially since the Horde is so stretched thin with remaining characters that you canât really get away with killing anymore. I kid you not, if Thrall and Rexxar hadnât come back ⊠the Orcs of Durotarâs most developed reps would be Eitrigg and Cromush. Like ⊠that is super humbling. The Darkspear and Forsaken are somehow in even worse shape.
It would be two factions ripping eachother to pieces for what amounts to the deaths of hordeâs of nameless NPCs. Because its not like you could kill any Alliance reps of note, since that would further solidify âHorde Favoritismâ. So, Iâm unclear exactly how that would be different than what we ended up with; except both sides had the good friggen sense to realize that neither had the firepower left to wipe the other side out, without blowing themselves up in the process.
And that is sort of the âpragmatic ironyâ of Anduinâs âit has to workâ isnât it? The kid is the only one in the room with enough sense to realize that by the ousting of Sylvie, the Alliance was not in a position to wipe out the Horde without catastrophic costs to themselves. And yes, I do think the Alliance could still win that fight, but I highly doubt they would recover afterwards if they did. The kid is not being just a bleeding heart, heâs just not going to push for that MAD.
They tried to reclaim land they already lost. Not to the Horde. The loss was not to the Horde. Sure, they failed to reclaim what they already had lost, but that isnât the same at all as losing it. Because they already. Did not. Have it.
I guess you forgot your original argument, itâs okay, I reminded you.
Right, my mistake in typing. Not intent though; Arathi was lost to infighting, to the Syndicate and to ogres.
None of those are the Horde.
No, I doubt you because you havenâ;t yet explained when the Horde had âalmost destroyedâ the Alliance. You point to a time when the Alliance was winning, though short on soldiers. You somehow conflaste that to âalmost destroyedâ, which means the game itself is wrong about the game itself. Iâve already said you could be right from MoP, and Iâll give it to you no question; once is still not multiple.
Youâre seeing bias. Iâm seeing you lay blame at the Hordeâs feet for things that were definitively not caused by the Horde, claiming âalmost destructionâ when it doesnât exist, and your attempts to defend both points require convoluted biased logic.
Not âthinking outside the boxâ. Biased.
Because youâre trying to say a country that straight up folded due to a third threat was somehow taken by the Horde. A nation that folded due to infighting is caused by the Horde. That the Cataclysm sinking Menethil is caused by the Horde.
you are literally blaming a group for natural disasters and internal disputes amongst a third party. Because of a clear bias.
So yes, bias is ruining the forums if thatâs what you want to believe.
A new beginning, thereâs no other way to save this story regarding the nature of an MMO. You canât go as far as in an RTS game, you canât without causing huge reactions, see Teldrassil.
But WC3 did the same, wc3 destroyed the âold worldâ and gave us a new one (kalimdor), it serves no other purpose than a new beginning.
The fourth war could have been a second WW and its consequences, Europe needed a new beginning after all the hatred and centuries of war, everything was destroyed, and together with the help of the USA it was rebuilt, that at least welded the countries together a little bit, enough that an EU still exists today, and that the West maintains a defence alliance.
Yes, the Horde would have been a blank sheet of paper in the beginning, I agree with you, but that doesnât have to be a bad thing, nothing bad, the actors of Germany were only formed after the new start, and yes, I compare the Hordeâs deposit with Germany, I think thatâs exactly what the Horde needs, a new white sheet of paper, after the old one became completelyâŠblack and got dirty.
Yes, but here you have Anduin on one side and the fanbaseâŠon the other.Anduin and Baine, all well and good, but the fact that the Alliance has to forgive again, thatâs something that the majority of the Lore players canât represent with their own moral convictions anymore. Or could you forgive a genocideâŠjust because they say âweâre not doing it anymoreâ and change the form of government? That is just not enoughâŠ
The Horde being a blank sheet of paper is a bad thing when you realize that they have nothing to rebuild from. Its also bad thing when you realize just how awful Blizzâs track record on building the Horde up has been over the years. For goodness sake, Saurfang became the Orc Racial leader in a tweet. It took 2 and half years for Blizz to finally pull the trigger on the obvious choice of Rokhan as the Darkspear leader (since heâs literally the ONLY choice left). It took them 8 years to finally get rid of the harbinger of the Bilgewaterâs destruction, Wix. And the Forsaken have just had Voss, with almost no buildup, become their racial rep.
Like ⊠what are you talking about here? It honestly comes off like youâre just trying to justify âyouâre satisfactionâ, with very shallow excuses for what to do with an entire player faction after youâve completely sterilized it for future stories.
A third continued to belong to the humans until the Forsaken intervened.
Well, letâs get started.
War II
If the Horde had conquered the capital and Gulâdan had not betrayed the Horde, the Alliance would have fallen and many, many lives would have been lost.
3rd war
The freed orcs were until medivh told them where to go, and then attacked the Alliance again, which was already unstable at that point Witch cults increased again, orcs who spoke to the demons and voluntarily sacrificed simple inhabitants for their dark masters. Without Medivh the situation would have become very nasty there as well.
4th War
The Alliance won in the end because Sylvanas did not intend to use the Horde troops effectively, but because she deliberately burned them, sacrificing them to empower herself. But we know that if Sylvanas had had the opportunity, no Alliance child would have been spared, there was only one choice: win, because otherwise it would have been destruction.
Just because the Alliance has been victorious on all fronts does not mean that the Alliance is in any kind of good shape in terms of troops.
Mop War
Garroshâs war finally brought about the big defeat, one after the other, of course the most famous example is that blizzard invested a lot of time and energy to show that the Alliance could no longer exist on its own and needed help from the rebels, otherwise it would have been wiped out against Garrosh.
If Blizzard is forced to build both factions, will they do what? What they always do, first Horde, then Alliance content.
There must be a need to rebuild both factions, for one alone they make no effort, see Alliance or Horde. But for both together they would be forced.
Blizzard has been giving Alliance players a really bad lvl experience for 10 years now, if the Alliance didnât have some big-name heroes, what would they have left compared to the Horde?^^ Less appeal, fewer raids, less successful communityâŠin other words; A Looser Faction.
Could you stop being overdramatic?
Like, Iâve done loremaster twice on the Alliance and have never had many issues. It was a generally safe, but still enjoyable, ride. At the very least, even if the stories are more âmemeâ-y and bland, they do make for a more cohesive experience. Unlike the Hordeâs currently, where if you were to go through every expansion now ⊠youâd be working for 4 Warchiefs and 1 Council all at the same time. Thrall in BC and Wrath; Garrosh in Cata and MoP; Volâjin in WoD; Sylvanas in Legion and BfA; the Council in BfA and SLs. There is also never a moment in the Allianceâs story where you donât feel like a Hero. The Horde PC on the other hand is bipolar as hell. How is that a better experience lol?
As for the issues with the Alliance as a community. There are a ton of factors attributing to that, not just story. In fact, Iâd wager story is not even in the top 3 reasons.
Again, unl;ess the game itself is lying, this is a different organization. The modern Horde began when Thrall created it.
Could have and would have are not what happened.
What happened was the Scourge nearly destroyed Azeroth. The Horde did not nearly destroy the Alliance.
This is also not almost destroyed.
Hurt? Sure. Losing? Nope, Alliance was winning early on.
I already gave you this one.
So, weâre still at âonce almost destroyedâ. Not multiple times.
The kingdom was already lost. All the forces in the ruined keep were fighting for a ruined keep. The kingdom was, by every measure, lost due to infighting, betrayal, ogres and the Syndicate. The Stromgarde forces were stated to be fighting to restore the kingdom.
You donât restore something unless it is already lost. The kingdom of Stromgarde was severely weakened in the third war, then betrayed from within, then forced into a ravine where they remain today.
All without Horde involvement. Their losses came before they fought the Horde over the corpse of their recently fallen kingdom.
Even if you want to argue that the Horde kicked the humans out of the ruins, the forces remained in Refuge Point. In Arathi. They are literally still there pre-BfA and eventually retake and rebuild the keep.
No, the Horde never took that zone.
Not to support Phea in the least (Elune Knows I disagree with her on much) but I have to agree, the Bee is Crap. The Absurd rep grind for a useless toy and an ugly Mount made me hate it so much, I wonât use the Mount even if I Did like how it looked.
But Child of Torcali is a MUCH better mount with a MUCH more enjoyable grind and a cute story to go along with it. So the Horde does have THAT going for them.
You and I cannot be bffs now. Good job. Beecist.
SEVENTEEN DAYS of posting, and not one person has made the pun âHeâs standuinâ with Anduinâ?
MHPâs arenât known for their attention span.
Did a hmp catcall you?
Mhp?
#10char
Literally you.