Retar–err, retail players are threatened by classic’s success lol.
Why do people that are trying to argue about talent trees always have to be completely disingenous and cherry pick some of the worst talents to try and act like they have a point?
15% x3 Crit on Ambush
10% x3 Crit on Backstab
45 Secs off Vanish/Blind/Sprint/Evasion x2
Extra combo points on crits
30% More Crit Dmg on Backstab/SS/GS
25 Energy back on finisher
Combo point return after finisher
And this is all without listing the actual core things these trees give out. Prep/Hemo/Vigor/Cold Blood/etc.
Basically you’re a disingenous manipulative liar and should just go back to retail. I’m sure you’ve heard this plenty IRL, “you won’t be missed.”
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Won’t talk about other classes but you’re def wrong about Druid. There’s plenty of situational choices in the tree depending what you want to do.
Personally went with a cat/bear hybrid for levelling, skipping the Balance tree in favor of improved MoTW as i do plenty of group content and chosing Feral Agression over the armor talent as it benefits both my questing and tanking and armor value on item isn’t great at lower levels.
On the other hand at 60 i will flip this on its head completely to get improved Thprns anx OOC in Balance while picking pure Vear talents In feral and only Furor and 1/2 Improved Enragd in Resto to AoE Grind 5man content for my Pre-BIS.
I feel that’s plenty of situational choices compared to Retail.
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No, my numbers are showing it up 100% of the time which means that’s the maximum gain from it.
No, it will not. At highest, it’s worth an average of 23.14%; assuming 35% armor reduction on the target. That is counting double dipping.
Yeah okay, you get a burst window where you get a white crit+yellow crit and have vengeance up but that makes up a very small percentage of your procs. You cannot expect that every time. It averages out over time hence why the called it seal of the casino. Sometimes you’d win, sometimes you’d lose.
The math is showing your typical average that will be across an infinite number of swings.
If you want to get real technical, they you have to either make a really complex set of differential equations, or you have to make a simulator. Regardless, they will still show you that vengeance is not worth what you’re saying in a best case scenario. There are other factors at play and things average out.
No, it’s not missing that at all, over a long enough time period, it will converge on what I’m saying. That’s how averages work…
You’re cherry picking the worst talents in an attempt to denigrate the talent system within classic, on top of that, you’re playng a class(Paladin) that really doesn’t benefit from talents until level 30+.
But hey, dump on Classic because you like retail better. That’s cool.
Retail 110 - 120
/Flips spell book
Sees nothing new
/logs out
And yet you still have far more build options than you do in retail and your spellbook is 3x as big.
Weapon damage = X.
SoC hit without vengeance: 0.7X.
SoC hit with vengeance: (0.7X * 1.15) * 1.15 = 0.92575X.
0.92575X / 0.7X = 1.3225.
It is a relative power gain of 32.25% over its unmodified form.
Edited spelling.
In a vacuum, yes, it will be up to 32.25% on a PER SWING BASIS. Over time, however, it drops in value because you’re not going to get a proc on every swing and you’re not always going to have 100% vengeance uptime. This means you are not always going to be double dipping, due to SoC being ~40% proc rate. Therefore, the relative power drops from 32.25% to something between 32.25% and 15%
My math is showing the overall gain from the talent in the REAL world and was showing that more crit doesn’t really blow it’s power out of control either.
Classic 51-60
/flips spellbook
/sees nothing new
/logs off
Goes both ways champ.
Classic has an even bigger gap, but some people are going to say the 11 point talent in a second tree counts so 51 is technically another “spell” for some builds. If you don’t count it though then most cut off at around 40.
There is no “it’s a situational choice”. You simply had an inferior build by not going down Balance to get Natural Weapons and Omen of Clarity. If you didn’t have Furor for leveling, that was even worse.
Did it work despite being inferior? Sure, but you can do that with talents and Azerite powers in BfA.
That’s the point I’m getting at here: If your argument is that BfA has no choice because there’s an optimal setup, the same argument can be made of Classic because classes have very specific optimal setups for both leveling and endgame.
It doesn’t really matter that you used something not optimal and got away with it. You can just as easily do that in BfA too.
Ofc i had Furor and once again, yes my personal power was “inferior” but considering i spent i considerable of time farming with a premade 5man group, that’s completely arguable.
Having a significantly more powerful Demo Roar and MoTW allowed me to do larger pulls which allowed my teamates to do more damage (mage/lock/Warrior DPS team).
That’s the thing though, there’s no building around other players at the cost of personal power in BFA, its either you make an optimal choice for you, or a suboptimal choice for you. Your character is the Hero, the “Chosen One”. There’s no synergy between anything.
Want more example of this in Classic? Nightfall Axe, Shadow Weaving, Winter’s Chill Mage, Power Infusion bots etc. etc. etc.
That does not however mean that BfA lacks any sort of choice in building a character, which was your original argument.
Also of note BfA does actually have some utility talents. Druids can take a specialization that boosts their ability in another role slightly. As a Paladin I can take either the Selfless Healer or Word of Glory talents to be able to throw out some heals(as opposed to getting a nuke against stunned targets).
and things like Shadow Weaving aren’t really a choice. It’s a mandatory talent for Shadow Priests to have.
But did it really? Let’s see at level 60, your demo shout would be -122 AP base, so with the talent for it, that would take it up to -170 AP, which is roughly 48AP. Before armor reduction, this would reduce the damage per second of the mob by 3.4dps. WoW, big numbers, much change…
As for MotW, +280 armor, +12 stats and +20 res. The talent then increases those to +378 armor, +16 stats and +27 res. So lets see, an extra 98 armor is going to be a trivial amount of mitigation and change in effective HP, +4 more stats is barely noticeable, and +7 extra res is a little over 1 level’s worth of res. Oh and let’s not forget the bear form modifiers, so your base armor gain, from thick hide, would take that 98 up to 107.8 and then in bear form, it would become ~390 armor. Still a pretty trivial gain in effective HP.
The reality of the situation is that those talent choices were mostly a placebo effect and ultimately had little effect on your ability to pull packs. This is a fact that cannot be argued. The numbers don’t lie.
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Meh…report the troll
Wondered where this thread would go, not actually too common to realize just how weak talents are. “Yay, 1% more dodge!”
Still, I must admit there’s that special something I simply dont get from retail’s talent system.
I always try hard enough to make talents matter, but rarely succeed when questing.
Tier 1 talents are rarely that exciting. Atleast you get something though. In retail you have to wait like 40 levels to do anything cool.
Why am I not surprised my comment has zero counter arguments.
Nice, you get to use it a couple times per fight!
The ability is kind of baked around this being used in conjunction with it to make dagger specs effective.
All 5 min cooldowns, so these get brought down to 3.5 min. That’s a 30% decrease in the cooldown. Not bad, but still situational utility.
Part of the keystone talents that actually start to make a spec. If you’re rocking 20% crit, then this means that you cast 5 CP generators and get 1 point free. Not bad, roughly a 20% increase in combo point generation if you’re at 20% crit and it will give a slight bump to your overall damage from your finishers. What percentage of your damage does eviscerate usually make up? If it were like 30% of your damage, than the extra 20% more frequent casts would bump up it’s relative damage by 5 or 6% of percent.
You go from 2x crits to 2.3x crits, which is a 15% increase in critical strike damage. However, you don’t crit 100% of the time.
Let’s use backstab as an example. Let’s say you have a 20% chance to crit and the +30% extra crit chance on backstab, that takes you up to 50% crit chance on it. That means that the 15% increase in critical strike damage is actually only worth a 7.5% increase in damage from backstabs, in the long run. Obviously, as your crit gets higher, it’s worth more and more of the 15% boost.
Still not terrible, but it isn’t as good as you think it is.
How many 5CP finishers per minute do you use?
By default, you regenerate 20 energy per tick, or 10 energy per second. This means you generate roughly 600 energy per minute. 5 backstabs cost 300 energy, eviscerate costs 35 energy. That means it will cost your 335 energy to get your 25 energy from the talent. So we will do some rounding and say you get roughly 2 5CP eviscerates off per minute. This means you return 50 energy per minute or an extra 0.83 energy per second or an 8.3% increase in energy generation. If you got off 3 5CP eviscerates, that would be and extra 1.25 energy per second or a 12.5% increase in energy generation.
Pretty decent for sure, as it’s roughly a 10% boost in dps. Not the be all end all game changer though and it’s kind of required to be competitive. It’s almost as though the spec was designed around it being taken.
This might mean the difference between getting 2 vs 3 5CP finishers off per minute, which will give a slight bump up in the energy return department that I explained before this and a very slight increase to overall DPS.
No, you’re just oblivious to the actual math behind these things and just see numbers that look big in the talents, without actually knowing what they are doing for you. Then, like a gullible sheep, you fall for the placebo effect of it all and think you can really feel the power creep…
When you pull 10-15 mobs (BRD AoE Runs from 52 to 60 pretty much) that’s 30-45 less DPS, over the course of hours of grinding.
Remember we’re dealing with Classic value, not billion numbers of Retail
Add these numbers times 5, except the bear modifiers.
Bottom line its a choice between that and a fairly trivial (compared to a Mage and Warlock’s AoE potential) buff to my own dps.