I just started doing M+. I don't think it's a very good system

[Irisse-maelstrom]

@Aewendil-caelestrasz

You had to kill Nightbane, Gruul, Magtheridon, Fathom Lord Karathress, Al’Ar and Rage Winterchill, in order, with quest hand-ins between each step, to gain entrance to Black Temple. Almost no guilds were willing to do this.

I do remember quite a few pickup Gruul and Magtheridon raids, no doubt a result of guilds being unwilling to do this for applicants.

@Talath-dentarg

If your point is that you don’t like complicated attunements because they take too long, require the guild to divert progression raid time to complete, and make it harder to replace people, I assure you, I get it.

I don’t know her point for sure, but I think the big problem with the BC attunements is that they prevented the raiding community from growing as the game population was growing. Artificially preventing players from doing the highest profile content in the game back then was not good for the game.

@Renataki-area-52

I think a reasonable compromise would be to have attunements, but make them account wide.

For BC style attunements, I think this would be exactly the wrong direction. The one valid purpose for attunements from a game mechanical standpoint is to filter out characters unable to do the content, and being an alt of a more powerful character does not actually make the alt more powerful. Preventing players from participating in new content is a terrible idea.

I could see it for story style attunements, like the Onyxia attunement line. If we have story style attunements, though, they should be required not just for mythic raids, but for all levels, including LFR. After all, the purpose of LFR is to let everyone experience the story.

[Talath-dentarg]

@Irisse-maelstrom

I don’t know her point for sure, but I think the big problem with the BC attunements is that they prevented the raiding community from growing as the game population was growing. Artificially preventing players from doing the highest profile content in the game back then was not good for the game.

Was it artificial though?

Look, I’m not advocating for a return to complicated attunements. And I don’t like the idea that players who want to do things can’t do them. I just miss that feeling of accomplishment. Yes, the process likely kept many people from raiding that otherwise wanted to or were able to, but it made raiding feel that much more special to me. I felt like I had “earned” the right to raid by putting in the time to find a guild, do the quests, get prepared, etc.

Then again, I also don’t like the idea of just letting everyone into every type of content without some kind of barrier. That’s kinda how we ended up in this situation where inexperienced players try doing keys way beyond their capabilities, and ruin it for the folks in the group that come prepared.

I think something in the middle could probably work. Not the complex attunements of BC, but not the open door we have now.

[Irisse-maelstrom]

@Talath-dentarg

Look, I’m not advocating for a return to complicated attunements. And I don’t like the idea that players who want to do things can’t do them. I just miss that feeling of accomplishment. Yes, the process likely kept many people from raiding that otherwise wanted to or were able to, but it made raiding feel that much more special to me. I felt like I had “earned” the right to raid by putting in the time to find a guild, do the quests, get prepared, etc.

I don’t think you’re keeping straight the difference between Vanilla attunement and BC attunement. It was Vanilla attunements that had quests. I was fine with Vanilla attunements too.

Under BC style attunement, you’d still be doing Uldir, because you’d need to clear it before you could do BOD. Would you really prefer that? Being a tier or two behind current content?

@Talath-dentarg

Then again, I also don’t like the idea of just letting everyone into every type of content without some kind of barrier. That’s kinda how we ended up in this situation where inexperienced players try doing keys way beyond their capabilities, and ruin it for the folks in the group that come prepared.

The mythic+ system has substantial barriers in the form of the key system. Maybe complex barrier systems like that just don’t work.

[Talath-dentarg]

@Irisse-maelstrom

I don’t think you’re keeping straight the difference between Vanilla attunement and BC attunement. It was Vanilla attunements that had quests. I was fine with Vanilla attunements too.

Under BC style attunement, you’d still be doing Uldir, because you’d need to clear it before you could do BOD. Would you really prefer that? Being a tier or two behind current content?

No, probably not. It’s been a long time. And I dunno, I might prefer something like that. I can see it being a bit of an incentive for a guild to push extra hard if they’ve gotta clear an old raid to catch up to current content. It would certainly motivate me to log on more and try harder.

@Irisse-maelstrom

The mythic+ system has substantial barriers in the form of the key system. Maybe complex barrier systems like that just don’t work.

I seem to have misunderstood this thread then.

[Aewendil-caelestrasz (Aewendil)]

@Talath-dentarg

Having to complete a previous raid on Mythic before being allowed to set foot in the new one sounds awesome to me. I’m a completionist

It sounds awesome until you remember that not everyone is raiding from day 1 of the expansion, and attunements like this effectively locked out anyone who started late from raiding at all, since nobody was doing those beginning raids 2 or 3 patches along from their release.

[Galien-thorium-brotherhood (Galien)]

First let me start by saying welcome back and yeah you’re right mythic plus doesn’t even begin to get hard until about an 8. It’s kind of annoying imo that these people running through keys and gearing to about 395 are complaining content is too hard and they don’t get invited to 10s because they have a score of 25 and a bad attitude.