There is no “letter of the lore” that is even saying or demonstrating the night elves are powerful now, maybe if you are still living in WC3 but definitely not now. Nothing is even stating they are powerful at this point not in game or in quest text, I don’t know the whole new book but is it even saying they are powerful or stronger than any race there like you are really trying to say here? I doubt it.
The useless night warrior power is also killing Tyrande, while she has nothing to show for it. I don’t even know if it’s actually effecting the elements though I didn’t see that page, it seemed like Thrall was just trying to smooth things over with her with words.
The night elves most likely won’t get a scene in SL (I think Ion said they won’t really address anything like that in SL) it will only be Tyrande getting rid of the night warrior power or dying. It would really just be in the expansion after SL, but my question was more general.
If people are only basing their knowledge of the lore on what is in-game or in-quests then they are uniformed about the lore as a whole. They wouldn’t even know that the Night Elves officially won Darkshore back. That is the “letter of the lore.” Whatever their perceptions are from missing out on the scattered lore pieces from Blizzard from all other forms of media is unfortunately player misinformation. Which is Blizzard’s fault. But still all it is. Misinformation and poor presentation. Not the letter of the lore. Which exists including things outside the game.
But I am not an optimistic person. Given things like the Park being made into Lion’s Rest, I would not expect a satisfying enough scene for the Night Elves even after Shadowlands, to be perfectly honest. Still, again, has nothing to do with the strength of the Night Elves.
We don’t even know when or how the night elves won Darkshore back. It could have been after Sylvanas was calling her forces to Org, but then why would Tyrande not be at Org to try to kill Sylvanas? Was there still fighting happening in Darkshore and it only ended because of the treaty?
The only reason we even know who won darkshore is because of a random question asked at Blizzcon, not because of anything in game, a book or a comic. What is the letter of the lore saying night elves are powerful, because all the in game and other written materials shows them as weak. Is there some secret tweet saying they are more powerful than another race? Also why can’t they tweet out the state of Ashenvale?
Oh I have no doubt they won’t give the night elves anything satisfying in the expansion after SL, my guess would be the night elves get some off screen victory (as per usual) so the horde gets to take it back.
Everything indicated that the Night Elves won Darkshore back after their first turn at the Warfront proper itself. Any cycle afterwards can just be seen as gameplay, same as Mythic+ dungeons. There is nothing to say that there was still fighting happening at Darkshore even before the armistice. Hell, not even the victory cinematic was ever made accessible, so people can’t even cling onto that notion that said scene somehow would have played out during the Visions of N’Zoth time period.
And hell if I know why they won’t tweet out something about Ashenvale. Hell, early reviewers of the new novel even say that Ashenvale isn’t addressed in it, either.
In that sense, how do we know that the reason Tyrande wasn’t at Orgrimmar was because she was fighting in Ashenvale? We don’t know. And we won’t know until Blizzard decides to stop refusing to give us answers. Which, being Blizzard, no one should try holding their breath for, if anything just for their own health.
I’m not saying we know if she is fighting in Darkshore or Ashenvale still, but with her singular focus now on fighting Sylvanas why didn’t she show up at Org? What would be the point of her not wanting to kill Sylvanas then? It makes no sense, other than Blizzard didn’t have any plans for night elf content after the dev said “Tyrande got revenge for Teldrassil” in 8.1 and then they just added a piece of dialogue later. That or she was STILL fighting in Darkshore or Ashenvale.
The cutscene being in game would have at least given us a time frame for when the night elves won darkshore, but not putting it in game means it can literally be any time before or after the treaty. The heroic version wasn’t even implemented until after the treaty, there is nothing indicating the night elves won the WF after the first turn. But I feel this could have been not implemented because they realized it was firstly a really bad cutscene, and secondly they realized the genocide of the night elves was a bigger deal than they initially thought when they decided to destroy Teldrassil with the night elf civilian population after the 8.1 backlash.
It would be nice to know this, but as you say it’s better to not hold your breath on things like this (especially when it pertains to the night elves). But they are constantly leaving out information literally any commoner NPC would know about the world which is becoming more and more tiring because you CANNOT discuss anything other than how things are presented or what is directly said.
Most things indicate that the Alliance won the Darkshore Warfront. Nathanos is no longer at Darkshore (having headed back to Zandalar before the Battle of Dazar’alor, and then we see him for Nazjatar before he goes back to Orgrimmar, and he doesn’t show up in the Alliance version of the Darkshore Warfront, either). The Horde’s version of the warfront is set right after the Alliance intro questing since the Horde has to save Belmont, and since that’s always the case and generals don’t change like at Arathi it would seem this is a gameplay mechanic like repeating dungeons rather than battlegrounds (Belmont also doesn’t show up in the Alliance version of the Darkshore Warfront, so it’s not like the Alliance players recapture him every time, either).
And even outside the Darkshore Warfront we have support that the Alliance won:
And then Nathanos says the Alliance is winning on all fronts after Dazar’alor, which would have included Darkshore.
The Heroic Darkshore Warfront didn’t even change anything mechanically like the Heroic Arathi Warfront did. The Heroic versions of the warfronts are purely gameplay, no more lore than running Heroic Dungeons again after running then in Normal mode first.
A. their military
B. Tyrande
C. any of their other major characters save malfurion
D. Cenarius
E. the Wild gods
F. any of their allies
and nearly WON while being the victim of a surprise attack and the horde managing to smuggle an entire army through a mountain… No other race in wow could hope to match such an achievement (save for maybe humans).
To give you a metric to which to measure how powerful horde races are. The darkspear are constantly kicked off their island by a ghost, not even a powerful one at that.
Obviously we know now they won the Warfront but that was ONLY because of the question asked at Blizzcon, not because of anything in game. The horde WF takes place first and then the alliance version against Sira, but that doesn’t indicate the WF was over then in 8.1 or anywhere before 8.3 because Tyrande or the army of the blackmoon were not present for the attack against Sylvanas. Why would they not be there for revenge that the whole night warrior thing is based around?
The only thing that stopped the horde was the wisp wall, not the night elves, this is with the night elves supposedly being adept at combat in the forest on their home turf, they only delayed the horde a little. Once they got past the mountain they destroyed the rest of the night elves there the night elves lost everything. The horde in game easily roll over the night elves and then get stopped by the wisp wall, in the book it’s harder as bringing a large army through a giant forest would be.
The night elves didn’t “almost beat them” they were just trying to slowed them down before their army could get back and the alliance could send reinforcements. Without the wisp wall the night elves would have been crushed much sooner and this is with fighting on a terrain they are suppose to be very adept and familiar with.
Nothing indicates they are strong now and other than Malfurion summoning a wisp wall, nothing indicates they were strong then and only really had defenders advantage (such as needing less people to hold off a large force when attakcing a castle).
The Horde getting access to the warfront first was also just gameplay. And I specifically noted what indicated in-game that the cycles after the Alliance’s version were just gameplay. As you did not address anything I pointed out as in-game evidence, you are not a case of a person being misinformed, you are just a person willfully ignoring lore.
Amusingly, it seems that there were members of the Army of the Black Moon at Orgrimmar. Night Warrior affected Night Elves in Boralus have flavor broadcast text, including one that says they were at Orgrimmar and had been close enough to Sylvanas that she would have been within bow range before she abandoned the Horde and flew away. So, horribly, even what we see in-game ourselves is not the full picture, because we did not see any Night Warrior affected Night Elves at Orgrimmar, but lore wise, there were at least some.
As for Malfurion and the Wisp wall, the great thing about that is Malfurion is still with the Night Elves, while Sylvanas is not, and as far as we’ve seen Thrall isn’t even using his Shaman powers any more. The Wisp wall was enough that Saurfang indeed noted that the Horde had pretty much lost at that point and would have needed a miracle, which obviously they did get in the pass through Felwood.
The stalemate back and forth IS just gameplay, it’s not any indication of when the warfront ended or when the night elves took back Darkshore since there is no mention of it. The only time we ever find out who won is from that randomly asked question at Blizzcon, we never find out when though.
Maybe, or it could just be that all the night elves in Boralus have the black eyes and they wanted the broadcast text to be in the main hub. But them being there isn’t really the point, the main question is why would Tyrande not be there to kill Sylvanas? That makes no sense unless she was still fighting in Darkshore or Ashenvale or Blizzard thought 8.1 was their actual revenge and never planned anything else for the night elves after that.
Yes, and without Malfurion the night elves are shown to be pretty helpless. It’s a shame too that Tyrande needed a power up to fight the horde in Darkshore and needed Malfurion’s help to fight Nathanos because it’s again something that is trying to diminish her. Is killing a Valk really worth needing that power up and Malfurion’s help? Because we know the night elves can’t do anything without him.
the NE stopped the horde cold at the river (dont remember the name) and it required the horde to use an azerite superweapon to break it.
the NE were vastly outnumbered, and even then inflicted more damage on the horde than vice versa.
the horde had to retreat back to Zoram to regroup and find a way to break the NE defenses (which is where suarfang scaling the felwood mountains came into play
the NE managed to stage a fierce resistance at falfarren river
the NE again forced the horde into a stalemate at wildbend river which was broken by suarfangs surprise attack from the mountain.
Honestly i do not know how anyone can make the argument that the NE are weak with a straight face. They are basically perfect. They have some of the most powerful priests, hunters, warriors, rogues, mages, druids, and demon hunters in wow. I mean, they only faced a legion invasion and an alqir invasion basically by themselves, defeated ragnaros, defeated the legion a second time, and defeated a corrupted aspect.
If the NE are weak, then all of the other playable races are critters by comparison.
dude relax. Tyrande isn’t dying. she’s gonna become the main Nightwarrior to bind all the others that weren’t able to. That includes another race we don’t know about yet too. Elune is praised beyond our world and we will see a lot of weird stuff. You’re welcome.
The river was only a problem because the night elves burned the bridges (I don’t know why this part won’t let me put it in quote):
"My lord, they burned the bridges,” rasped one of the Forsaken scouts. She had a fresh scar across her armor, but the remnants of her flesh seemed untouched. “We think they burned all of them.” Saurfang grunted. The Falfarren River was not terribly deep or wide, but recent rains had left it swollen. “Set up the siege engines close to the river. Fire everything we can. Force the elves to stay under cover. And keep looking to see if they missed something. Any bridge will do. A big log. Something.”
Again going back to what I was saying about the night elves having the advantage here because of the terrain and how difficult it is to maneuver in a forest. Which is also stated in a good war:
This is the defender’s advantage I was mentioning and was predicted right at the start, obviously the night elves will have an advantage in the large forest with knowledge of the terrain and it was going to be harder to move an army through there. They were going to lose, the only thing they could do is try to slow the horde down.
The night elves put up a good fight in the book, but they were predictably destroyed even with home field advantage, the only thing that really stopped them was the wisp wall.
You cannot dismiss the defenders advantage and how difficult it is to move large forces through a forest, the writer obviously did not dismiss this clear advantage. If it was somewhere else the night elves would have been destroyed quickly.
Then they obviously lost everything and then with the horde forces split in 8.1 all over the world, they were too weak and needed the night warrior power up to fight the forces that were still there:
And since we didn’t find out when, it could have been as early as after the first Alliance turn at the warfront, as there is no new lore states of the Darkshore after the Alliance world quests state.
And yes, as we discussed, one plausibility for why Tyrande was not at Orgrimmar could be because she was taking Ashenvale back. As we both said, we won’t know until Blizzard gives an answer.
And the Night Elves are not helpless without Malfurion. The Night Elves have been able to hold back forces from all the combined races of the Horde on Kalimdor without him since Classic, and especially notably during the Cataclysm, and they pulled their fair share of their weight during the War of the Thorns.
It is just that with Malfurion the Night Elves are unnecessarily stronger than the Horde.
Like the other Val’kyr not even being attackable during the questing scenario, the killing of the other Val’kyr was not an indicator of either Tyrande or Malfurion’s worth. It was simply an indicator of Blizzard’s poor choices in presentation.
The Night Elves indeed stop the Horde by burning bridges. But, technical note, it was not an Azerite weapon the Horde used to get passed this, just rather the Horde using mages to freeze the river so they could cross it again.
If anything, that you keep pointing this out just makes the Night Elves winning Darkshore back all the more impressive, if the Horde really had it so secure.
Yes, it could have been literally any time, or it could have been because of the treaty. I’m saying the fact that we don’t know when it happened is a problem, this is something a commoner would know in wow but for some reason the players with meta knowledge are left out of important information especially when it comes to the night elves.
And yes, we aren’t going to know until Blizzard tells us, but I have a feeling since it’s night elf related we aren’t going to know for sure.
The horde wasn’t attacking them since classic The night elves though couldn’t remove the warsong from Ashenvale so they have lost part of Ashenvale since Classic, it only got worse after Cata with the horde setting up a base above Astranaar and taking Silverwind.
They just had defenders advantage during WoT, but they weren’t going to stop the horde. The only thing they pulled that was unexpected was Malfurion just being so powerful before he got taken out by Sylvanas and Saurfang. Think if they weren’t in such a favored terrain? They got demolished in Azshara.
The night elves on their own are not much of a threat to the horde and usually get rolled over pretty quickly. Look at Wolfheart from cata, they couldn’t even fight orcs at night in the forest or they couldn’t even hear shredders, they were only lucky to get a message out of Ashenvale that was pretty much under the control of the horde so they could get all the alliance races to go there and help out, with deus varian and the worgen to save them.
Once you remove Malfurion, the night elves seem pretty helpless. But why did Malfurion need to be there for the Nathanos fight? That would have been an instance at least of Tyrande being able to do something on her own, but she just needs Malfurion’s help, which is the fate for all night elf victories.
Obviously that is again presentation, but why is Blizzard presenting it that way? Why are they doing things like this to the night elf presentation over and over?
It shows the horde didn’t really see the night elves as a threat and didn’t reinforce it because it was under such control so they could move forces to other areas. As they say “The outposts there have yet to be reinforced with our main force”, literally controlling Darkshore with outposts. They obviously underestimated what the night elves had left, but it was clear the horde was no longer there in any kind of large force, they even went around to raise night elves to supplement their small numbers.
Terrain doesn’t matter. These are the same Night Elves that took the fight to Ragnaros in the Firelands itself and won. The reason that the Night Elves can literally grow a tree in the Firelands that won’t burn but Teldrassil lit up like a match from some catapult hits are purely this:
Blizzard writes who it wants to win or lose without any logic or merit.
Blizzard wanted the Avengers of Hyjal to kill Ragnaros, so that’s what happened. Blizzard wanted Sylvanas to burn down Teldrassil, so that’s what happened. Blizzard wanted to make Undead Night Elves, so that’s what happened.
The Night Elves also cleared the Horde out from Astranaar in Cataclysm, and the Night Elves took back Silverwind in the background according to the War of the Thorn novels as well, even before getting all of Ashenvale to themselves after the original Siege of Orgrimmar.
And even in Wolfheart, the Night Elves were the ones that performed the ritual on Varian that let tame his rage and fight effectively in Ashenvale with the Worgen and become who we saw in Mists of Pandaria, which was the entire titular point of the novel.
Terrain mattered very much as stated in A Good War about Ashenvale which was the reason the night elves were able to slow the horde down at all:
And yes, blizzard will write who they want to win and that usually results in the night elves losing. They didn’t actually “write” the night elves winning darkshore for example, that’s just something outside the source material that they don’t think is important to mention.
Also the Avengers of Hyjal was also comprised of Tauren, they were mostly from the CC who we have seen over and over usually never fight for the night elves or try to defend nature when the horde is there to destroy it.
Yes, so why is it that Blizzard can’t show the night elves having a decent victory? Why is it the night elves who are always the punching bags? If the horde can burn Teldrassil from the beach, why can’t we even get text saying the night elves took Ashenvale back?
Night elves stopped Astranaar from burning in questing, they didn’t take out the new base that overlooked Astranaar though. We only find out they even had Ashenvale when they were losing it all in WoT, but you could have assumed as much after SoO because of the treaty where the night elves gave the horde Azshara to appease them (which obviously didn’t work out, but the horde still keeps Azshara). It was never actually said though prior to the WoT novella.
Yes, because the night elves needed someone to save them, and that was Varian and the worgen because they were too weak to really be much of a threat to the horde, this was with all the other races helping them in Ashenvale as well. Wolfheart was probably the worst ever portrayal of the night elves, showing how they could not even fight in Ashenvale at night and continually got ambushed and out maneuvered easily.
You just showed in the same quote why the terrain didn’t matter, as the primary factor that allowed the Horde to get anywhere at all during the War of the Thorns was because they outnumbered the Night Elves because they fell for Saurfang’s feint to send their armies away, specifically because the Horde would not be able to defeat them otherwise.
Blizzard prioritizing whatever latest idea they think is so cool that they came up with over the Night Elves also has no relevance to the strength of the Night Elves.
The Night Elves also did not give the Horde Azshara. Just let them use the lumber there. Though, yes, the Horde attacking any way is exactly why the Night Elves don’t trust the armistice now.
As far as the fighting in Ashenvale in Wolfheart, I put about as much stock into it as Blizzard puts into Maiev trying to kill Malfurion and Highborne in the same book: None at all. Blizzard tries to forget that book almost as much as it tries to forget Me’dan.
Wolfheart? That book thats descripted 50 sentinels are enough to hold the entire horde? The horde needed the magnatauren to break trought that defense line