Even more primal and basic than that.
Even if you can never destroy one faction, and it always will end in some form of stalemate … how do you write a war story in general without “winners” and “losers”? On even a very micro level. To make a compelling narrative in that War, there needs to be individuals or groups that lose … and those that gain. And people would flip the hell out if there were. They always do.
The faction conflict was as its best when it was just a background thing, that the leaders of both factions would off handily bring up to justify some action.
Even then the MoP ending had signs of it not over, Lor’themar looking into Sylvanas’ direction was a big hint. Varian stating the “Sylvanas will be contained” statement. Sylvanas was a powder keg that wasn’t resolved and needed to be. Then Vol’jin’s death and BfA happened.
MoP shouldn’t have villain batted Garrosh, it should have resolved the Elephant-in-the-room-Sylvanas. It didn’t even have to Villain bat her, just back her in the corner and go “Are you in it for yourself, or the Horde?” Her choosing the Horde would have been a nice character development.
Edit: Ironically Garrosh would have been the perfect candidate to back Sylvanas in the corner had they gone the Stonetalon route. Then maybe have Garrosh’s character also grow seeing the damage he was doing in MoP and attempting for a ceasefire. So many character development potential wasted by yet Villain batting again. Looking at BC’s direction with Kael’thas, Illidan, and somewhat Vashj. All of which are being fixed in Legion and now. eye rolling.
Thrall and Saurfang have existed for more than just forgiving the Alliance of wrongdoing.
Heck, in a novel when there was a great opportunity to show Horde leaders coming to Baine’s aid during the Grimtotem thing, it just so happened that the only person who could help him was … Jaina Proudmoore.
Which can go back to my statement of Baine will be hated for doing good things. … what is the context here, I am honestly confused. Are you just nit picking my post that I was generalizing the entire Baine Haters?
Forgiving the Alliance for Camp T / The Barrens and then allowing them to continue raiding the Barrens with impunity until Garrosh came was not a good thing. Nor was banishing all Tauren who defended the barrens from the Alliance.
Nobody hates that Baine wants peace.
What people hate, is he bends over backwards for the Alliance, time and time again, and gets nothing for it. It’s his primary Character trait. It’s really his only trait outside of Blizzard hinting that “He’s got an anger problem and is really really strong, strong enough to demolish Garrosh. No we will never actually show this”.
If Blizzard showed him even once standing up for his people directly, I think people wouldn’t have a problem with him. But even when his people are directly slaughtered, he’s a damn lapdog. Because he’s not a character, he’s a plot device for Anduin/Jaina most of the time.
Also Shadowlands seems to be dumping on him even more, making him explicitly worthless and useless, when Jaina and Anduin are shown fighting and holding off the Jailer’s forces, and even a depowered Thrall is still able to fight off the Jailer’s forces, and get in a hit on Helya out of spite.
Baine in SL basically starts by being rescued, gets rescued a second time, and then just sits and pouts in Oribos. He’s contributed nothing so far beyond checking a box that says there’s equal lore figures for both factions involved.
He does escape between the first and second rescue, as we arrive in the maw and he is being captured again.
Still, offscreen.
So now I’m even more confused, I got nit picked for saying “Baine haters will hate Baine for doing good things.” Then jump to “Never forgiving Camp T, Alliance boot licker” etc. … now I’m really confused, or is it to explain why Baine would be hated for good things and not others?
Hmm the way I am seeing things is this:
Vengeance for Camp T is accomplished by Hawthorne’s death, but Baine is condemened for not retaking the Barrens? Here is a legitimate question, could the Horde retake Southern Barrens at the time? They did retake it but that was during Mists of Pandaria where there wasn’t an apocalypse happening from a giant black metaled dragon, and Twilight Cult that was in every faction’s hidden shadows. So if the Horde couldn’t retake it at the time of Cataclysm would Baine be a good leader sending in Tauren to die for nothing?
He exiled the Tauren wanting more bloodshed and vengeance, and continue the war. Again sending in more Tauren to die is the good response? Continuing the war is a good response? Hawthorne is dead, that’s good enough. They were exiled from Thunder Bluff, and protected by a Great Gate. Keeping those Tauren around would most likely have also caused political problems as they would try to rebel against Baine. This is a Baine was politically doomed from the start scenario.
Baine is an Alliance accessory. Well that’s true and I wish they would fix Baine. Except it’s not just a Baine problem, it’s the entire Horde problem. We exist to just be there to antagonize the Alliance. To be the evil foil to the Alliance goody-two shoes foil. This is proven with Legion and now Shadowlands. Who is even the Jailer’s primary prized weapon? Golden Boy Anduin. This needs to be fixed before anything else. It’s why the Taurens are “Gentle Giants” and not having any of their WC3 Tauren counter parts going “DEATH TO THE ENEMY!” To make it so that the Horde are good by having Tauren, not for the faction being good itself. Killing off Baine wouldn’t solve this problem.
Baine is a Milksop. Well that’s true, again no one likes a pacifist weakling. He does need to tap into and accept his dark side. To tear people who push him around apart with his bare hands. This falls under needed character development.
Killing off Baine would make things better. Really? No seriously really? It would just be to people’s enjoyment, no more. When has character assassination or being killed off worked? I can name you a lot of times it didn’t work, let’s see.
Kael’thas: Which is being worked on in SL.
Illidan: Had to be fixed in Legion.
Vashj: While reaching, she could have brought playable Naga to the roster. That and she seemed legitimately helping Kael, missed character development.
Cairne: Worst WoW death of all time still.
Lei Shen: He was a great character with short amount of time, should have had more development and be the final antagonist of MoP. Be the perfect example of taking “for my people” too far.
Garrosh: Garrosh did nothing wrong due to being written poorly.
Vol’jin: 2nd worst WoW death, being fixed in Sylvanas: She was a powdered keg just waiting to happen since Vanilla, now likely being replaced by Calia, making things worse.
That’s just BC and Horde side, no idea how much the Alliance would add there. Somehow Baine’s death would make a difference? Spoiler alert, it wouldn’t. Not with the problems Tauren and Horde have. He would just be replace by Baine 2.0, or a Garrosh/Sylvanas Baine to get villain batted and killed off, causing more problems.
WoW’s player base seems to see their leaders supporting their people by just being aggressive and sending waves and waves of their people to the opposing faction just to die. Peace is a bad thing, or go for Sylvanas’ plan of “surrender but by our terms!” This stems to Anduin not just Baine. I think this is because population numbers don’t matter. The Blood Elves apparently lost 90%, but are still kicking and are good. So sending waves and waves of soldiers at the enemy faction doesn’t matter, it is in fact good to show your faction’s devotion.
The other Problem is this a two faction game with another player base. “Surrender by our terms” can never happen. Seems people want BfA 2.0/MoP 3.0, but don’t worry! Third time is a charm for a faction war expansion, right?
I also just see Baine just being hated for replacing Cairne. Samething happened to Garrosh with Thrall, with the whole “Campfire for Warchief” bit. He only became popular after being fully villain batted.
One last point:
The Horde player base: We need character development, and to be added to the plot.
Also the Horde player base: KILL BAINE! SCREW HIS CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT!
That’s what I am getting from all this, all this hypocritical stuff is making me confused, Imma go back to work.
I don’t speak for anyone but myself but I was pumped to see Baine get introduced as a character. He’d been mildly built up as a character in the first three expansions and his introduction felt like the Tauren were gonna get some narrative love.
…and then… Christie Golden happened.
Baine wasn’t involved in either. Baine wanted to shell up in Mulgore and hope that the war’s end didn’t end with the Alliance just keeping their ancestral lands for themselves, as they have been wont to do.
And Hawthorne wasn’t the only person responsible for Camp T. Jaina ordered it, Varian supplied Hardened convicts to be used as shock troops against Civillians, and the Dwarves of Bael Modan decided firebombs were the tool of choice to be used against leatherworkers and children.
I’m not saying the Horde should have directly gone after Varian/Jaina, but “Vengeance” ending with the death of a random officer in the days where people want the whole horde to suffer even after Sylvanas, Nathanos, and their most dedicated followers were captured and/or killed is odd.
The Tauren pushing out the Alliance from the Barrens was no more incorrect than the Night elves were to push the Horde out of Darkshore.
Good that not everyone hates Baine due to replacing Cairne. It just all seems copy pasted at a point.
It is true that it is hypocritical that to pin the blame on Hawthorne and not his troops, while the entire Horde gets blamed for Teldrissil. I don’t agree with the fact that the Horde should be punished further after the pain BOTH factions went through in BfA.
That being said, it seems the majority of the Tauren agreed to wall up the Barrens. The Tauren have always been passive since Vanilla. They’ve been defanged from their totem carrying halves from WC3 since then. Would love to see this fixed, but it requires the entire Horde faction to be change around, which it needs honestly.
On top of that to say he should have sent troops to retake Southern Barrens while an apocalypse is happening via Deathwing is the exact samething as Genn should take vengeance on Sylvanas during the apocalypse via Burning Legion. Both are terrible ideas because there is an apocalypse happening.
I’m saying that Baine is not a good man.
Lor’themar mentioned Teldrassil after Baine’s arrest.
“I cannot fault Baine’s heart, even if his actions were drastic. Through this act of defiance, he exposed a schism in the Horde that has been growing since the attack on Teldrassil. I fear that by openly opposing Sylvanas, he may have put his own people at risk. As mine would be, were I to side with him. These are perilous times. We must be cautious… and deliberate.”
Garrosh didn’t stay out of the conflict between Baine and Magatha because he didn’t like that Baine was mad at him. Garrosh initially stayed out of the conflict because he was too busy celebrating his win over Cairne up until Eitrigg revealed that he was played for like a fool. And then we have no idea why he didn’t try to get involved afterward, that was just left blank.
Though might have been for the best since Garrosh felt his honor being in question over winning via poison was actually comparable to Baine losing his father. He didn’t say it when they met at the end of the novel, but I don’t think he could have kept his mouth shut for too long if they were in each other’s company longer.
That’s my hope as well, especially since it would definitely led to Cairne being included in the expansion. After all who better to help Baine than the father he admires so much?
Didn’t Baine already talk to his parents in the tauren heritage quest and it basically amounted to nothing but “we’re proud of you” and teasers for the Shadowlands expansion?
Would Thrall dusting Sylvanas with lightning and insert named Forsaken here dabbing Kel’thuzad to death count as a feel-good moment?
Baine wouldn’t be hated if he had done good things. He hasn’t. He’s done bad or dumb things. Acknowledging Taurajo as a valid military target was a bad decision for the High Chieften of the Tauren. He should have gone into bat for his people, (diplomatically) at the least. He’s basically given alliance permission to attack his people where they wish without fear of reprisal from him.
Choosing to kill loyal horde soldiers, over Derrick Proudmore just makes him a murderer and a traitor. If he felt strongly about Derek, then maybe he should have just ended his suffering.
If he was to have some saving grace it needed to happen at the meeting in stormheim. He knew something was up but made no preparation and allowed Zelling to be killed. He’s the High Chieften and entitled to a retinue. If he’d turned up there with a body guard of Tauren Earthshakers confronted Sylvanas, fought his way out to become a fugitive and maybe even saved zelling that would have been a big plus, but he meekly surrendered and then needed rescuing.
Anduin is the savior of the entire universe going by the prophecy of Velen. And he is not even 20. Baine is just pathetic in comparison.
Hating Baine is always the right thing to do. The sooner he dies the better.
Droite being Droite again. The delusion holds the ground.