"I Feel Lied To," Post-BfA Version

If you dump the entire pre-patch stuff, alter the war campaigns to being the Horde investigating Ashvane and the Alliance investigating Zul, and change the 8.1 Raid to being Azshara hitting both capitals and taking out Rastakhan (Horde raid) and Katherine Proudmoore (Alliance raid) leading to Xal’atah conning both factions into Azshara’s ocean floor trap to lure in the wearer of the Heart, we would have a fairly solid expansion without the animosity between players of the factions to the other faction AND the animosity towards the developers.

You would then have to retool the lead in to Shadowlands and do something about the warfronts, but that wouldn’t be difficult.

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After careful consideration, I had my Shadowlands purchase refunded. I’d probably still follow story developments through wowhead news articles, out of curiosity - but sticking around and playing feels like sunken cost fallacy at this point.

The official story right now is “Sylvanas conned you all”, and I don’t appreciate that. For over a decade of quests, stories and books, there was no jailer, no secret is evil scheme to send us all to hell that I somehow missed. I don’t like how the current story direction gaslights the player, I don’t want to support this anymore.

Hoping to have a good reason to come back some day.

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I’ve been banging on this particular drum since the Garrison days, but noooooo.

We need better writers. Blizzard insists they’ve come to understand how to tell stories in an MMO after bungling Illidan’s story in BC but they clearly haven’t.

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The “Sylvanas conned you all” is just such an easy copout that can really be applied to anything. So lets say we beat the Jailer but Sylvanas lives BUT, BUT here is the twist in actuality she was prepping us to fight against the Void lords and in fact has been a good guy/girl the whole time…

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My appreciation and long-term following of the Warcraft franchise is based on short stories, comics and novels, some of which are written by the current names leading the WoW story. Same folks. Pretty sure the current lead is responsible for “Three Sisters” and “Dark Mirror”, the Velonara secret hunter quests in Trueshot Lodge, all of them are fantastic works. These are the things that I LOVED in the Warcraft universe. IMHO there ARE talented writers on the payroll there. Perhaps that’s not the problem.

And some of those people suffer a lot of unjustified internet bashing by anonymous users (i.e. people hate-posting against Christie Golden about the Telsdrassil patch, despite the fact she joined company as a full-time employee AFTER that patch was long written. She’s in a team that doesn’t get to make WoW lore decisions at all). It’s important for me NOT to criticize anyone specifically.

The reality is:

  • We don’t know who made what lore decision, and how much weight the words of staff member X has over staff member Y etc. Any finger-pointing is speculative and thus unfair.
  • We don’t know how the decision-making process works.
  • Maybe certain decision are driven by marketing or other non-writer types. Dunno.

I still don’t like the end result, regardless of what inner workings are responsible for it - which is why I’m skipping SL.

They can pull it off if they’re aiming for players who JUST follow the story through WoW voice-over and cinematics. If you read some of the novels and stories, you can’t fall for that. They’re written from an omniscient storyteller perspective, portraying Sylvanas’s own thoughts and feelings from within her head. You’d think that if there ever was a long-con with a Jailer, it’d cross her mind sometime in “War Crimes” or “Before The Storm” (this one happened JUST before the 4th war! It was the BFA prelude novel!).

Reframing a decade of gameplay and writings as “actually, it was all a lie” reduces the value and meaning of any ingame content.

Maybe I’m expecting a more cerebral experience from something that isn’t meant to be thought-provoking. Maybe I’m not their target audience anymore. I know most players don’t follow lore, some use addons to skip reading quest text. For them, whatever’s not in a cinematic never happened. When Blizzard contradict themselves, it probably doesn’t bother such players at all.

EDITS: I don’t speak English as a first language. Fixed typos and bad grammar.

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I may not always agree with the tone that people take, even if I understand the vitriol. A lot of great works and cultural pillars are getting reinvented by people who were not responsible for what made them great in the first place and hollowing them out with their own ideals and aspirations. When authors, writers, and filmmakers prioritize leaving their mark over respecting the cultural institution that these things are, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to be upset about it.

I happen to think story-telling is a sacred thing, and it’s how we as people have been able to communicate virtues and values before we had a written language. I also happen to think that when modern-day myths like Star-Trek, Conan the Barbarian, Star Wars, Spider-Man, become popular that it’s not exactly and accident, and that those stories resonate powerfully for a reason, and taking part in that world is not to be taken lightly. That is absolutely what I feel like Danuser and Golden are doing.

Like Rian Johnson’s outing with the Star Wars franchise, an absolute disrespect to what came prior. My gripe with comics isn’t the fact that a hero may be re-imagined once in a while as much as their decision making leads to writers with little-to-no experience writing comics are given some of the biggest characters to write, then treat them like stepping stones. These creators are putting the franchises on a resume, not celebrating them as fans would.

While Golden may not have officially been on the Blizzard team, she’s been writing for them for at least a decade before getting hired for BfA. I don’t believe for an instant that she’s not kept in the loop, consulted with, or asked to opine on the story direction, or even feedback on the directions they’re considering.

We may not be able to pin certain things on her, but the criticism has to go somewhere. Afrasiabi’s been accused of throwing her and Danuser out as scapegoats and I’m not sure that’s any more or less likely. You’re right, we don’t know, but we can, and I do, infer.

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Interesting comparison. I’d like to elaborate on this.

This might be slightly off-topic, but I absolutely loved Rian Johnson’s latest movie, “Knives Out”. I think it proves he really is a brilliant writer, Johnson has the ability to make great art - an ability which is not reflected in “The Last Jedi”, for some unapparent reason (according to fans. I’m not a Star Wars fangirl and can’t form an educated opinion on this). Maybe one day he’d publish an autobiography, but otherwise it’ll remain a mystery.

I guess we’ll never know why his SW movie wasn’t good, but I suspect that much like the BFA-to-SL plotline, the factors are more complex than “good/bad writers”.

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I guess I just take the Occam’s Razor approach.

Speculating that the story was bad because the writers turned in a dud assumes a lot less than speculating that there were other, more nebulous forces behind it.

I think Rian Johnson, because he said as much, just wanted to subvert expectations. That assumes a lot less than something factor we might only hear about in some tell-all.

In comics, though, there appears to also be a lack of editing to rein in their writer’s off-the-wall antics. I don’t know what the equivalent for WoW would be.

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This is mostly me taking a guess, but Ryan has said in an interview that he first started coming up with ideas for Knives Out 10 years ago. Which means he’s had about a decade to work out the script and carefully craft the story he wanted to tell. It was also a passion project for him because he wanted to bring back the old “whodoneit?” genre of murder mysteries to the big screen.

Compare that to his work on Star Wars. Disney wasted little time after buying out Star Wars and got to work on Force Awakens almost immediately. Then there were two years between Force Awakens and the release of Last Jedi.

Moving production is a lengthy process which means Ryan needed that Star Wars script finished VERY soon. In another interview I believe it was stated Ryan wasn’t finished writing his script before Force Awakens was done filming, much less out.

So already we can see the difference. Ten years to craft the perfect story for something he was deeply passionate about vs a few months to craft a script for a movie that higher ups demanded be ready by a certain date to fuel Walt Disney’s Evil Empire of Joy.

This applies equally to WoW’s writers. They do not get to make the big, sweeping decisions. Where we go next is almost certainly chosen by marketing teams and higher ups. The producers, if you will. They’re then put on a tight time frame within which to work and get things done because the next expansion needs to be fully written by X date so they can release the expansion on Y date so they can make Z profits.

It is an unfortunate consequence of the monetization of story telling in our modern world that sometimes even great writers are forced to put out a sub-par product because they’re working for someone else. Not working for their own love of story telling.

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Disregarding the fact that certain characters went into very surprising directions, the movie was too artsy. It did not follow the SW formula fans expected and for a middle-of-saga film that is not a good thing. There is a time and place for art and subverting expectations and a SW movie trilogy is not that place.

They should have given him a stand alone film set in the SW universe and he could go ham.

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But how does that relate to the BFA story and people feeling the expansion’s marketing (prelude novel included) was misleading, in your opinion?

Let’s go back to the WoW topic, and not get into Star Wars too much.

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Old god focus instead of faction war focus?

Its like having the story be marketed as one thing but then the story is about another thing entirely.

was going to throw in some tlj references but honestly whatever i would say would just be infinitely more interesting than tlj.

Aside from that we got the plinkett review.

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I bounce back and forth between if I was lied to by this expack or if Blizzard just genuinely did not know what they were going to do with it so they pencil whipped a bunch of checkboxes of what should be in a WoW expansion.

Best way I can sum up BFA’s lore is: mile wide, inch deep.

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To be honest? When I ocassionally play through BfA on other toons, it truely feels like Blizzard had NO IDEA what they wanted BfA to be, only that they had to vaguely tie it to Shadowlands somehow. Only reason I can think of why it’s all over the place storywise. Seems they tried to do too much.

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Yes, N’zoth and the whole gameplay theme and mechanic of the Patch 8.3 could EASILY have been its own expansion.

But I recall something about “N’zoth can’t carry an expansion” because he’s not as iconic a villain as Arthas or something.

Yet the entire basis for Shadowlands is a bad guy we have never seen or heard of before until now, this Jailer.

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I mean, people were pretty excited to learn more about N’Zoth, since we knew he was supposed to be the clever one amongst the four. Between him and all the A’QIR races in game, it would have made for a awesome spooky expac.

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To get back to the pre-expansion book for BFA, by the way:

I am holding out hope that these were still Sylvanas’ feelings and that the things we are hearing now may have explanations moving forward. I understand that the Jailor is supposedly the big bad of Shadowlands now, but until about five months ago, we’d never heard of him. He didn’t exist. And I feel like that might have been the case until fairly recently, as well.

When trying to understand the lore of a thing, we are left with a lot of missing pieces. I feel like those missing pieces are something that somehow changed Sylvanas during BfA. Like, somewhere before the burning of Teldrassil and the end of Before the Storm (which is where we get Sylvanas killing her own people because they chose to meet with their living relatives in Arathi,) there is a story that hasn’t been told yet. It’s the story of how Sylvanas realized she was shackled to the Jailor. It’s the story of her realizing the choices that she made that day she dropped over the edge of Icecrown were binding. It’s why, when I keep rewatching that video of Sylvanas with the Helm in her hands, I see her considering the role she’s meant to have–wearing that Crown. I also see her choosing, instead, to destroy it rather than wear it. I have a feeling this is NOT what the Jailor intended. She was meant to become the new Lich Queen. But …now she’s something else.

It’s why, for example, we don’t see a lot of story for her in the prequel to this expansion. In fact, there is a whole lot of NOT Sylvanas in the book, and this leads me to believe that the reason for that is because there are things going on in her head that would make this next expansion completely understandable and destroy a lot of the mystery for the players.

It is one of the reasons that I continue to hold out hope that we will, eventually, get that middle story–the one where we begin to understand that Sylvanas is fighting her own shackles to the Jailor which she discovered–where her previous intentions and feelings (as noted above by Adarria,) are no longer important for obvious reasons. It will help to explain why Teldrassil occurred; perhaps there was something there that was …important. A tether. A tie. A person who told her about her relationship with the Jailor and the Valkyr. Honestly, I don’t know. I’m just hoping for something here that will explain it better than “Rawr! Kill all Alliance. Funnel souls to the Jailor!”–because frankly, …that doesn’t make sense to me at all.

And yes…I’ve probably forgotten something here (but thankfully I’m not a lore writer for Blizzard!) So please feel free to throw wrenches into my suppositions. I’ll happily listen. I know one of them could be something to do with Stormheim and her relationship with the Valkyr that comes out there, and also during the questlines in Legion. I didn’t do a lot of the quests that involved them, and definitely didn’t see that expansion from the Horde side in any meaningful way; so, there might be more about the Valkyr there that I’m missing.

All in all, though, …I don’t think we’re seeing the whole Sylvanas picture here, and I think that’s intentional. And hopefully we’ll get some good stories out of it–eventually.

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I’ve been chewing this over for a while, and I think I may have a theory about this.

Consider…

  1. Jellex speculated that Sylvanas’ episode of Warbringers was the one most likely to have been reworked.
  2. Warbringers: Sylvanas was the only of the three pre-expansion videos to have a follow-up piece, or “part 2.”
  3. The Korean interview promised us that we would see the “good” or “normal” side of the Horde.

I think at some stage there was a video just about the burning of Teldrassil which included both Sylvanas giving the order and Saurfang’s reaction. This was then split into two separate videos, Warbringers: Sylvanas and Old Soldier.

If I’m right, this brings up a few questions:

Was the whole video originally intended to be part of the pre-expansion series, which may or may not have been called “Warbringers” at the time? If not, what other video(s) did it replace?

If it was not originally intended as part of “Warbringers,” was the original video going to be HQ CGI? Did it get split up in order to make Old Soldier shorter or allow it to be produced faster because it was only using existing HQ models (i.e., no need to make a new one for Delaryn)? And if it was going to be HQ, when would we have seen it?

(My guess, if it was planned as HQ, would be that it was going to drop in-game at the end of the WoT and perhaps include more NE content as well so that it would focus on both sides.)

Or alternatively, if it was never intended to be HQ, then did they spin off the “Old Soldier” part so that the “Warbringers” videos could have a theme and all focus on single characters?

Or because someone realized “Hey, it would be super-easy to make an HQ video with Saurfang and Zekhan because we already have their models”?

Was Zappyboi/Zekhan even originally going to be in it, before he became a meme?

So many questions … what do people think of this theory?

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She didn’t have them killed for meeting with their living relatives. She had them killed for choosing the living relatives over the Forsaken. For choosing them over her.

The lack of Sylvanas could just be marketing. One of the two factions hates her and the other faction has split over either hating her or liking her.

That is terrible for promoting a new x-pac where you want this Jailer to be the big bad instead of her.

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And, you know, him being the last old god left. N’zoth being a side note in a faction war expansion was a crime.

Everything tied to the faction war (assaults, warfronts, needing to gather allies) could have just as easily been tied to him instead.

Heck, even Sylvanas burning the tree could have been pulled off better. N’zoth is corrupting Teldrassil, the Night Elves refuse to destroy it because they have people left inside the tree that are being held by his forces, Sylvanas uses that as an excuse to torch the Night Elves and send more souls to the Jailer and anger the Alliance enough to cause the same amount of pvp we had going on in Legion to get more people killed, Horde sides with Sylvanas because no way did they want a corrupted world tree that close to Orgrimmar.

There’s no way they planned him becoming as popular as he did. If they had we’d have seen him every five minutes in game instead of him being tied to cinematics and one questline (where Sylvanas says she’s going to deal with him if you side with her and then nothing happens).

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