She still had several Primes left by the WoT, so its not as if killing her would have been permanent. On top of this, it seems that by the end of BfA her power had grown considerably; likely in proportion to the mass death she had caused since then. Her bodying Bolvar was a sign of that.
At this point though, with Helya already appearing in the Intro Questline, its very obvious that Heyla’s been working for the Jailor. Mueh’zala, who orchestrated Vol’jin’s death is also in service of him. Which suggests to me that those “too good to be true” Prime’s have also likely been in his service; or will be written as such as we go into the Shadowlands. Their deal with her always bothered me. They had frittered away too much bargaining power for what amounted to a short reprieve from the LK and eternal servitude; or damnation.
If I recall correctly she had no intention to enslave Veressa. She seemed to legitimately want to rule the Forsaken with Veressa by her side.
In fact the only reason she seemed to want to kill and raise her in the first place was because she thought the rest of the Forsaken wouldn’t want a living elf among them. Which was why when Veressa decided she didn’t want to abandon her kids (which fair enough Sylvanas probably would have killed and raised them too) Sylvanas’ response was to first rage against the wild life in Tirisfal until she just broke down and cried herself into cold-heartedness.
Of course her being Sylvanas she failed to see how killing her baby sister would be a bad thing but like I said it showed that there was a chance that deep down she just wasn’t the monster Blizzard just decided she had to be.
I hoped the same thing during the Legion cinematic where she rescued Varian, risking herself when she didn’t have to.
What fools we were to hope for a subtle, character growth based redemption, rather than “aha! We fooled you when we has Sylvanas spend an expansion twirling her mustache and laughing evilly! She was doing it for the greater good all along!”
Thanks, Finninbas! I don’t remember seeing this article back in the day. Some quotes for the record are below.
I used to like him for that until I found out that BfA is likely the price we paid for it.
Okay, some quotes below from the Forbes interview of January 30, 2018, with Alex Afrasiabi and Ion Hazzikostas. (“Newman” is the interviewer, Heather Newman.)
Newman: Talk a bit about the decision from a story perspective, the world perspective. I think everyone was curious as to what happened to Jaina Proudmoore. I’m not sure as many people were curious about what happened to the former Horde Warchief Thrall, especially since he kinda said, aw, my hammer isn’t talking to me anymore, and then wandered off. I think everyone thought that was (former senior vice president) Chris Metzen’s goodbye when he retired.
Afrasiabi: Oh, no, he’s coming back. Metzen’s coming back. Better believe it. That’s why Thrall’s back. [He laughs.]
Newman: Lead me through that thought process for the new expansion.
Afrasiabi: We consider the faction divide foundational to Warcraft since [its real-time strategy] times. As we kind of look at the equity we have in certain fiction, this is the one that’s at the top of the list. We’ve danced around it for so many expansions now that we feel like it’s time to pay it off.
Now, there’s some of the story that you haven’t seen yet, of course. Actually there’s quite a lot of the story you haven’t seen yet. Over the next months, more of that will come to light.
As we’re talking about things like enemies, we’ve fought everything. We’ve fought everything under the sun and then some. We’ve gone to other planets, other universes, you name it.
Newman: Back in time!
Afrasiabi: Back in time. It’s interesting. I think about this a lot, because I’m a nerd. Especially in Warcraft , do we become what we kill? And we’ve got these characters in the game, these Alliance and Horde players, who have done it all, and in killing an old god, do we take some of that with us? In killing an elemental lord, do we take some of that with us? A dragon aspect. A titan. I think we do.
And so we’ve set the stage for, when we say, what is the most badass thing out there? I would argue it’s the living god that put an axe in the side of a titan, more so than the titan itself. So when I look at a player character and I say, look, we have a world populated with living gods at this point, that have ideological differences that cannot be righted, what happens in that world? Well, this happens.
I’ve got this group of gods and this group of gods that will never get over their differences between the humans and the Forsaken, the orcs and humans. Never. The Night Elves and the trolls. The Night Elves and the Tauren. I mean, there’s so many different racial divides that have melted away into the background, but they’re still there. For those races, those things are still there.
How much land have the Night Elves taken from the Tauren, from the trolls? These are the things we want to settle, and that’s what I think this expansion is about. Now, of course we’ll see other things come into the foreground as we adventure through this, because certainly there are forces in this universe that want the outcome of this. So we’ll see. That’s the TL;DR version.
Hazzikostas: On the story side, I think it actually is that faction focus, front and center. I think in many ways, what classes were to Legion, factions will be to Battle for Azeroth. Instead of the class campaign you’ll have a war campaign. You’ll be having this feeling of working on behalf of your faction to further your efforts in this battle that consumes the whole world. That’s exciting.
We are schrodinger’s adventurer, we exist and at the same time we dont, one of the only moments we’re openly acknowledged is when kadghar said “go ahead and make a raidgroup for the nighthold like you usually do” but then at the end of legion, i see a different deathlord and highlord depending on my character… so whats this all about? am i real character and a palpable influence on this story? or just some convenient tool for the writer that gets pulled out in case of emergency? honestly this is exactly why i miss being a random murderhobo.
holy crap… really? from the tauren? am i missing some context here? from the trolls maybe but the only ones that may had a claim may be the zandalari and even then… you got the guys that were guilty of that on your side both the highborne and the nightborne, azshara is naga now… so how does that work? besides nothing got settled this expansion we ended again on a tenuous peace, freaking bullcrap.
Stonetalon, maybe? That’s all I can think of–I seem to remember that Garrosh canonically retreats from there in Cata. But it seems a little late to start making a fuss about it now.
The fact that they said this with a straight face, right after those races did, in fact, “get over it” to work in class halls for all of Legion, says so much about how little they respect the story they’ve actually TOLD, versus the cool scenes in their head.
BFA was such a big troll to all the players. When Sylvanas got promoted to Warchief, I was curious how she was going to fit into the position. Then the BFA cinematic dropped and we see Sylvanas lead the charge and rally the troops against the Alliance army at their doorstep. Even Saurfang rises from the ground and charges ahead with the Horde flag. Faction pride! Woooo! I wonder how the Horde was brought so closely together!?
Then the expansion drops and we find out that everything in the cinematic was a straight up lie. Sylvanas didn’t actually care about the Horde. The Alliance army at their doorstep was totally justified. Saurfang was just looking to get killed and he was pulling his punches against Anduin in hopes that the Alliance actually succeeded in killing the Horde.
Yeah, I certainly got suckered by the BFA cinematic, I hadn’t played since cataclysm but it revved up all the old engines and got me to come back. I think I’m only in for SL to see the conclusion of this mess.
Man, I was dead set convinced, upon seeing the BFA cinematic, that the attack on Lordaeron was going to be this logical consequence of an increasingly belligerent alliance and the Stormheim events, and that Teldrassil would be a tragic escalation. ‘The other way around,’ I thought ‘simply wouldn’t make any sense!’
I’ve been wondering for a long time about the accuracy of this translation. I finally got around to checking out the original version of the interview. Since I don’t speak Korean, I used Google Translate to get an alternate translation of the relevant part.
Q. It’s a story about Bfaa, but the Horde is evil and Earl [Alliance!] is becoming good. What’s the difference between Silva[nas] and Garrosh?
A. This is our mistake, we first released the content of Teldrassil and Lordaeron in order to make the game popular during Blackcon [Blizzcon?], which helped make Silva and Horde evil. Three animations will be released before Bfaa like Legion. We’ll cover a variety of characters here. In the case of Jaina, for example, her unusual side will come out. On the other hand, the normal side of the Horde will come out. Also, Anduin’s attack on Lordaeron is not something to be done for justice. Honestly, this is great to show the dignity of the king. The chief does not necessarily represent the camp.
And then I had an IM conversation with a coworker who’s originally from Korea. He looked at both the Korean original and the Google translation. Below is a lightly edited transcript of our chat.
Me: So, can I ask about the implications of some of it?
When it says, “This is our mistake” … they don’t really mean “mistake,” right? I mean, they’re not really saying they were wrong to do this?
Maybe it’s more like “That’s my fault”–but really meaning “You can blame me if you don’t like it,” not “I did a bad thing”?
Him: It’s more like “This is our fault.” It sounds like “We are responsible for this.”
Me: Thanks, that’s what I thought.
What about “which helped make Sylvanas and the Horde evil”?
That bit doesn’t quite make sense to me.
Him: The person who is saying this not blaming Sylvanas and Horde.
Me: Hmm, interesting.
Like “We forced them to do it” or like “This isn’t actually true”?
Or maybe you can’t tell, sorry
It’s just that this whole sentence is weird
Him: It sounds like “We should not release the conversation between Teldrassil and Lordaeron in advance.”
Me: Ahh, I see!
More like “It will make more sense when you see the whole story”?
Him: Yes.
The person is not targeting or blaming certain people. The person keeps saying “This is our fault”
“We should not have done it” - This is the point.
Me: Okay. (I bet he’s not really sorry, though, because it definitely got people to ask a lot of questions and talk about the game!! )
One last question: when they talk about Jaina’s “unusual side” and the “normal side of the Horde” …
That’s “unusual in a bad way,” right?
And “normal” as in … relatable?
Him: Actually, it is more like abnormal way is more close
Me: That makes sense.
Him: I still have no idea about this entire conversation. I know it’s all about the game.
Me: Well, I can explain some of it if you want
Him: You don’t have to. I know it will be a long story. [LOL!! ]
Me: Well, here’s the short version
I don’t know how much you know about World of Warcraft, but there are two sides, the Alliance and the Horde. They’re not supposed to be “the good guys and the bad guys”–they’re just supposed to be different and have different philosophies.
Him: I don’t know WOW at all.
Me: But just before that interview, the Horde (led by Sylvanas) did something really bad, and the questioner was worried that this meant the Horde was becoming “the bad guys.”
So when it says “the normal side of the Horde will come out,” I assume they mean that to be a good thing.
I mean, a bigger compliment than just “normal,” which sounds pretty neutral in English.
“What’s he like?” “Oh, he’s normal”–not a huge compliment
Him: So, you are Horde ?
Me: I have played both sides.
But ever since this story, I don’t enjoy playing Horde anymore.
Him: Right. It is not a compliment in Korean too. Normal is just normal.
[snipped a little bit where I showed him the other translation from MMO Champion]
Him: This is not accurate. The statement is more indirect, but this is so direct.
Me: So you think the Google Translate version is better?
Him: Yes. much better. I see some mistranslations too. especially, this one Q. So Sylvanas is the bad guy, Anduin is the good guy? Horde is Evil, Alliance is good? What is different Sylvanas from Garrosh?
This is really mess up translation. LOL
Me: Yeah, I see that the first sentence there has no real equivalent
Okay, just to finish up, anything else that jumps out at you, or did we cover everything?
I’ve been following this thread for a while, and I wanted to share my thoughts as someone who returned to WoW during the first month of BFA, after a very very long break (~5-6 years).
The story is far more engaging and integrated into the game than I remember it from earlier expansions, so I’ll give the story team credit for that.
Players have become far more vocally critical of Blizzard than I recalled (it might be selective memory, not sure). Some of it is justified, but the hostile tone can be a deterrent and potentially prevents our criticism from being taken seriously by Blizzard. This thread is doing a good job by maintaining a calmer tone.
If you read “Before The Storm” in 2018, there is no way on earth you’d think there was any pact with any Jailer. I’m mostly mad about the reconning of “Before The Storm”, because the book is still relatively fresh and tells of a VERY different motive for the 4th war. It shows Sylvanas’s thought bubble. In her own mind, the purpose of the 4th was to conquer Stormwind and raise them as undead:
"And in the bargain she would increase the population of the Forsaken. For all the humans who fell with their city would be reborn to serve her. Would that be so terrible, really? They would be with their loved ones for all time. They would not suffer the daggers of passion or loss any longer. They would need no sleep. They could pursue their interests in death as well as in life. There would at last be unity.
If the humans only understood how terrible life and all its attendant suffering dealt with them, Sylvanas thought, they would leap at the chance".
There was no Jailer here. No pact. No Shadowlands. No big giant nihilistic scheme to kill entire Azeroth and send them to hell (Maw) permanently - on the contrary, she wanted them to stay in Azeroth as undead. This is what the 4th war was about all along.
I would argue that this retcon is far worse than any interview Travis Day gave (he no longer works for Blizzard as per his Twitter btw), because this text is canon. Unlike some random sentence a staff member emitted in an interview, many eyes went over this book and approved it for release.
Broken Shore. The book further confirms - through her thought bubble - that Sylvanas regretted Varian’s death, did not mean to abandon him, and that it was Vol’jin’s orders to retreat and not let the Horde die. This is different than the story Blizz tells now, that it was all part of her “plan” to rise to power.
“She had respected Varian . She had even liked him . And the specter of the Legion had been so dreadful that she had been willing to put aside the hatred that fuelled her now as food and drink had fuelled her in life. […] She had told no one the regret she had felt when, standing on the stern of her ship, she beheld the green smoke of the explosion below where Varian had fallen.”
There were also a couple of paragraphs in the same book about how Sylvanas still had lingering feelings for Nathanos. This was also hinted in the earlier short story “Dark Mirror” (very well written story, I only started to like Sylvanas after reading it). This was retconned in “Shadows Rising”, claiming it was only a transactional, one-sided relationship - but I’d give Blizz the benefit of doubt and assume this is something Sylvanas can have a change of heart on.
Long story short, I liked how BFA got me engaged again. I did not like being misled by the story team, and I did not like having a book I enjoyed reversed and retracted altogether.
There’s a part of me that regrets getting invested again in lore, knowing that it leads to disappointment, due to the inconsistencies, inaccuracies, outright mistakes and retractions.
This criticism comes from a place of love to the Warcraft franchise, love that I sustained for over a decade, even when I wasn’t playing. I enjoyed many novels and short stories. I re-read “A Road To Damnation” and “The Last Guardian” every few years when I was bored, they’re great. I still love Warcraft, which is exactly why it irks me when a character I just started liking gets her history rewritten, and her own internal monologues are reframed as a “lie” (?), to fit a newly-concocted narrative.
Thanks for your perspective, Adarria. I’m glad you find this thread useful, and I completely agree with you about the retconning of BtS. I’m really starting to come around to the idea that the story of BfA was rewritten not once, but twice (or more) during the leadup to the expansion.
I have to say that I didn’t find the story being integrated into the game to be a plus; that only meant that it was impossible to ignore. You couldn’t just play the parts you wanted to play without finding that things you might want to do were gated behind stuff like the war campaign (ETA: for example, I can’t create a Zandalari character because I didn’t do the war campaign). The result was that I barely played my Horde characters at all for the entire expansion because I hated the main story so much and it was inescapable. Which is too bad, because parts of Zandalar look really cool.
If you dump the entire pre-patch stuff, alter the war campaigns to being the Horde investigating Ashvane and the Alliance investigating Zul, and change the 8.1 Raid to being Azshara hitting both capitals and taking out Rastakhan (Horde raid) and Katherine Proudmoore (Alliance raid) leading to Xal’atah conning both factions into Azshara’s ocean floor trap to lure in the wearer of the Heart, we would have a fairly solid expansion without the animosity between players of the factions to the other faction AND the animosity towards the developers.
You would then have to retool the lead in to Shadowlands and do something about the warfronts, but that wouldn’t be difficult.
After careful consideration, I had my Shadowlands purchase refunded. I’d probably still follow story developments through wowhead news articles, out of curiosity - but sticking around and playing feels like sunken cost fallacy at this point.
The official story right now is “Sylvanas conned you all”, and I don’t appreciate that. For over a decade of quests, stories and books, there was no jailer, no secret is evil scheme to send us all to hell that I somehow missed. I don’t like how the current story direction gaslights the player, I don’t want to support this anymore.
Hoping to have a good reason to come back some day.
I’ve been banging on this particular drum since the Garrison days, but noooooo.
We need better writers. Blizzard insists they’ve come to understand how to tell stories in an MMO after bungling Illidan’s story in BC but they clearly haven’t.
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