That’s probably the main plot for Christie Golden’s next novel.
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Baine undermines and exemplifies one of the biggest inconsistencies in the Horde- one which Blizzard seemed to want to talk about with BFA but then abruptly someone the room next to the writing team screamed, “FISH PEOPLE!” and suddenly we had a naga subplot and we were thrust into a situation where the actual Battle in Battle for Azeroth felt shorter than the prepatch event.
But basically, the Horde doesn’t make sense. On the one hand you have rugged survivalists who will do whatever it takes to survive to see tommorow- this would be Blood Elves (NOT HIGH ELVES, THOSE ARE IN THE ALLIANCE), the Forsaken, the Mag’har (in theory), and Nightborne.
Then you have the Tauren, orcs, and trolls who seem more than willing to bro it up with the Alliance and are disturbingly friendly with them- why the Alliance is lead by a teenage boy who’s eternally willing to turn the other cheek and how the Alliance remains the dominant military power on Azeroth despite being on the receiving end of deliberate genocide every other expansion? Couldn’t tell you!- right around when they start feeling something that might resemble a sense of remorse and regret.
Of course this is a problem when it appears as though all it legitimately takes to get a guy who was allegedly sick and tired of war and genocide to then plan explicit genocide because Sylvanas pointed out a blatant plot inconsistency- we can only assume that an idiot leads the Horde if they perpetually throw themselves on the Alliance’s mercy because the Alliance can be counted on for that. But then he balks when Sylvanas is forced to salvage his plan because he decided he had honor after chucking an ax at a guy’s back but somehow not when he orchestrated the sacking of an entire Night Elf outpost, or that whole thing where he swept across Darkshore- something the Burning Legion couldn’t figure out in 10,000 years.
Which then drives into the second biggest sin in Battle for Azeroth’s plot- instead of actually addressing and playing with that narrative flaw (specifically, that the different outlooks on life are why the Horde is fractured; Sylvanas behaved completely within character up to the point that Blizzard invented some stupid Greater Plot to be Resolved Next Expansion! nonsense. And so what we’re left with is an idiot fighting for the honor of the Horde after he planned and executed the greatest incident of factional genocide since Garrosh detonated a mana bomb by declaring a personal fight to the death with his war chief because he got cold feet at the last minute, and didn’t seriously object to committing genocide at any point up to it.
And then of course because Sylvanas was plunged into a no-win scenario she was forced to commit to asymmetrical warfare knowing full well that any other situation completely defeats the purpose of the war in the first place and would once again have the Horde throwing themselves at the mercy of the Alliance.
People hate Bane because he looked at that mercy thing and said, “Oh, sign me the eff up!” Like, I get that the horde / alliance conflict is stupid and contrived- the explicit lore point that the Forsaken had reached out to anyone who would support them but found their emissaries killed was a retcon invented after the fact to explain their sociopathic tendencies instead of just steering into the, “trauma like death affects you in ways the living will not understand” plot point.
But. But. The Horde isn’t supposed to be the Alliance. They’re not supposed to be Superman. There’s absolutely nothing in the extended lore of the Horde factions that suggests that all things being equal they’ll fight for a moral absolute. They’re not Gandalf or Frodo or Samwise. They’re Elric of Melnibone. They don’t fight dragons of chaos, they ride the dragon.
As for Calia, she’s just dumb. Kind of like how it was really silly to have Thrall kill Garrosh (in a CGI sequence you can’t interact with, no less) since it’d be really interesting to have the one dude who straight up ate the heart of an old god and lived to tell the tale around, it’s really, really silly to reintroduce Arthas’s long lost sister as a lore character only to kill her, and bring her back as Pretty Forsaken so that the Forsaken can have a new lore character when they were already tripping over good characters (Lilian Voss, Koltira, Nathanos, someone like Scarlet Commander Marjhan could have been reintroduced, maybe a dark ranger) only to then have an expansion that is heavily teasing Arthas.
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Where? Don’t say Teldrassil, because burning the tree was never part of the plan.
My assumption is Camp Taurajo. He didn’t approve of them dying, he admitted that Taurajo was a valid military target.
If they mean another time… yeah, I’d need clarification.
Sometimes a power has to bend to a more superior force to bide time or rebuild to a more cohesive and unified position. The tauren and orcs did it post lk event, the horde played nice with varian because they were on thinnnn ice after wrathgate - forsaken in particular. You can also see this in Elder Scrolls with the Empire urging unity to better combat the Thalmor.
Sometimes you have to placate a larger force into complacency and arrogance.
While I don’t disagree with your point, that’s not what Baine is doing, because Sylv was already kicking the alliances rear. If he really wanted the horde to win, he wouldn’t have turned traitor.
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Wanting your faction to win at the expense of honour and pride, and to support the genocide of the enemy isn’t something that many people would align with. Baine certainly didn’t.
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Not mush RAAAWR in them that’s why
Honour and pride are fancy names for allowing your enemy to win. In war, neither exist.
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He (Baine) also negotiated and ensured the civilians of the camp be release and returned.
So he did not “allow” for a massacre or approve of the attack, he disapproved of a retaliation because of the civilians being released.
He then closed the Great Gate.
I love how people twist things to their own suiting, just because they don’t like change.
According to the Devs, lore wise the horde lost in Darkshore and Alterac.
No, there are things called war crimes in the real world for a reason. And many in the Horde were not willing to cross that line. That doesn’t show weakness, that shows strength of character.
The new Horde was founded on honour and pride.
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Don’t have a problem with Baine, but don’t know Calia enough to trust her. We’ve barely even been introduced to us. She’s an acquaintance.
Baine actively undermines the horde and is hateful to the faction and should have been expelled for betraying his own people let alone the horde. Calia is just trying to retake the throne of her fallen kingdom and try to ease the suffering of her people. I hope we return from the shadowlands to baine being dead, but Calia on the throne of a plauge cleansed kingdom. Shes just trying to restore lorderon from the ground up.
Be nice to have things like that you know, actually in the game.
War crimes are convenient propaganda tools to dehumanize the enemy with. The idea was invented barely more than a hundred years ago and primarily only ever used to dehumanize and eliminate German leaders and supporters after the end of WWII. They are nothing more than a ploy politicians use to justify invasions and control of other countries. The idea that such silly nonsense actually matters in combat is laughable.
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I will say it’s really weird seeing Baine all cushy buddy buddy with the Alliance. And this started in Pandaria. As for “killing our own troops”, I’m assuming people are talking about the scenario where you rescue the corpse of Derek Proudmoore. Sylvannas loyalists aren’t Horde. There, I said it.
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Didnt used to hate Baine, liked him, then BFA happened.
Im not sure what people are thinking in support of Bain an Cali. Yet, most arguments seem like the ones who are Pro alliance/ a goods partition American of Americans. Just look at Bain history an wonder why he was not killed off in Wraith let alone Mop. Bain whole character is about betrayals, lies and spying for alliance. These trait seem what Most American value now days. That is my opinion. That is why they support him.
Cali just anther concept of goodness based on twisted ideals.
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Baine is an Alliance character. He kills horde soldiers, hangs out with Alliance leaders. It’s ridiculous that horde characters should have to tolerate him. Terrible writing is the new normal sadly which also explains Calia.
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