And yet, Blizz keeps making changes to them without considering our feelings, and that connection. Blizz be like, “Ooooh, let’s nerf the crap outta them, let’s make them cast spells and move in stupid ways! Let’s completely and utterly ruin our player-base’s opinions of their characters that they’ve had since launch or near to it, because, well, we can!” Nooooo! Stop it! For God’s sake, leave my characters alone! No more messing them and making them crappy! I just want my characters to be the way they were! I want to actually like my characters again. Not look at them in the log-in screen and go, “Ugh, do I have to?” We, as paying players, should not have to have these thoughts. We should want to play them, not press the unsubscribe button every time we log in. Dammit Blizz, you’re doing it wrong.
Thanks for expressing my own frustration with the game so well. I’m not a min/maxer, and not particularly concerned about having the greatest damage output, but since 8.0 the classes I have come to love playing just feel boring and gutted. It makes what very well may be great content just feel dull and lifeless. I haven’t committed to quit, but my account is off auto-renew, and since I’m just playing less and less, that may very well be the end result.
Best of luck, and thanks for a well written post.
On Yotube, Michael @ Bellular Gaming just released his 8.1 break down of class changes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnFaDk_rJnI
He stated overall positive changes, but nothing to get excited about!
I think Azerite design took the Class Design team off focus resulting in the scheduling conflict, that even now with 8.1 delivering fixes to Azerite… it made the 8.1 class changes just iterative. Echoing my sentiment, we won’t be seeing innovative class designs while BfA systems are as they are.
He also stated they are pretty much just numbers tuning and talent reshuffling. No significant class design changes, and rogues are actually getting pruned again.
It’s pretty concerning, when they put class design at the END of the to-do list, and are hell-bent on pumping out content…
What’s content mean to someone who has no favorable character to do content with… I’ve made multiple 120’s thinking it’s going to be my next main, end up quitting after a few days and start playing something else, I’ve realized no matter how many times I switch it won’t make a difference. Even the op Tier 1 classes, they may be STRONG, but that doesn’t mean anything if they are boring, becuase when they get nerfed (as it goes with blizzard pinwheel “balance”) they will feel 20x worse.
I don’t blame you for quitting, right behind you.
They want to avoid ability bloat in the future of the game because they feel like it would make the classes unsustainable. One way of doing that in legion was to have the abilities on the weapons that they could then easily take away in future expansions . This however backfired spectacularly because it made players feel like they were losing things they loved and a had gotten used to. Blizzard settled on a compromise of putting most of the abilities in the talent tree instead, plus other baseline abilities .
It’s clear that Blizzard is convinced that avoiding ability bloat is crucial for the longevity of the game (Ion said pretty much exactly this in a dev interview) , and the legion class redesigns were meant to create a good solid base class and class fantasy to iterate on in the future, and bfa was never meant to have a big focus on classes. In fact I recall them specifically saying bfa was not going to be a class focused expansion,and that they were relatively satisfied with legion class design.
The problem is that players experience everything in the game through their class and race. The class and race is your avatar through which everything in the game happens. I think they are doing a great job with races at the moment with allied races and heritage armor, but the class design aspect of the game is just as if not more important, and I feel like they need to spend more time listening to the community and communicate when it comes to class design.
The issue with saying BFA is not a class focused expansion, is that Legion had Artifact weapons.
In the case of Shadow, we were fully redesigned for Legion with Voidform & Xal’atath in mind from day 1. All of our Artifact traits were designed to be core to our Voidform class re-design.
When they deleted Artifacts, they deleted at least one third our class design, we lost:
- Mass Hysteria: the most important reason to go into, and stay in, Voidform
- Call of the Void: the prettiest part of our original class design, also smoothed out Insanity generation
- Mental Fortitude: the reason we felt tankier in Legion and feel so squishy in BFA
- Thrive in Shadows: Another key part of our class design survivability
- From the Shadows: Another key part of our class design survivability
In addition, they went way further by also taking away other parts of our Legion class design:
Void Torrent was baseline (artifact), now it’s a talent that doesn’t do what it used to do for us (the purpose of Void Torrent was to extend Voidform, but without Mass Hysteria VT was indirectly nerfed)
Voidform haste generation was nerfed to half of what it was in Legion, ruining the Legion feel of the class
Shadow Word: Death was made a bad talent, formerly a core spell for 14 years
Lingering Insanity was nerfed too
Legacy of the Void was nerfed too
Surrender to Madness was deleted and a replacement talent is still Not Yet Implemented
The benefits of Voidform were nerfed
The way to get into Voidform was nerfed (VE Cast time)
They put things on the GCD that shouldn’t be on the GCD (it just makes the game feel laggy)
It wouldn’t even surprise me if I forgot nerfs too.
So if they wanted to not do any class design in BFA - they shouldn’t have done everything above - they should have grandfathered the Legion artifact traits and spells and talents into BFA untouched.
That is not at all what they did. They completely decimated Legion shadow, then had the gall to pretend it’s the same spec. It’s not.
More than half our Legion class design is gone.
Holy crap, this. So much this. Also, a question, if I may. What’re melee classes like nowadays? Are they bad too?
Legion artifact weapons were only ever meant to be temporary. They were meant as a way to add cool new abilities and having an easy convenient way of taking those abilities away again in future expansions so as to avoid ability bloat - Ion specifically said this himself in an interview. This backfired though because it just made players feel like they were losing core aspects of the class. Putting the artifact weapon abilities in the talent tree was a compromise, and it’s pretty clear most of them were never meant to stay in the game. This is exactly why Azerite armor traits are mostly passive and not that exciting.
I’m not saying I agree with this philosophy. I think they should have kept and expanded on the artifact weapon system, and they definitely should have kept the class halls. But Blizzard clearly very strongly believes in this and it’s not likely to change.
Yeah, I was pretty miffed when I bought BFA, and logged in. I checked Onopa’s gear, and saw immediately that the artifact weapons were now useless. To me, I wondered what the point of all that effort was if it was only going to be valid for one singular expansion. I really enjoyed the way the talent system was for those. It almost felt like Blizzard was listening, by giving us more talents and choices for our classes again. But alas, it wasn’t to be. My husband was SO annoyed when he logged in an found his useless too. He plays a DH, and I remember hearing him raging, and saying that his weapons were a focal point for Demon Hunters.
The azurite armour stuff is okay, it’s really annoying that they kept the whole artifact level system though. I also don’t like the talent system in them. It doesn’t feel very option-y. And who’s to say that in the next expansion, all our work on our armours won’t be null and void too? That’s probably gonna be a thing. It’s almost like, why bother, if it’s only gonna be valid for one expansion? But! That’s typical Blizzard. A new expansion makes the older one and its achievements useless. You’d think that in every time that this has happened, it’d suck less by now. Nope.
Moderator: Edited for language. Please adhere to the Community Code of Conduct when posting.
The relatively unique situation with Shadow though is that Shadow was completely redesigned for Voidform during the design of the Legion artifacts: simultaneous.
As a result, more than perhaps any other spec in the game, core parts of our class design were embedded inside our Artifact. Removing artifacts was a bad move for everyone, but it was debilitating for Shadow.
Then they also did the second list of bad changes on top of removing our artifacts.
And thats the thing, they got mixed up at some point and put too much on the weapon and not the class (like survivability) that the removal of the Legion Artifact was a nerf that the “second pass” should of picked up on… but didn’t. 6 specs suffered from the scheduling issues of BfA and thats cause they got the class designers mixed up in Azerite Armor. Thats why many of these changes feel like a rollback, and not the promised “Major Update” (174 days)
If the class designers are also messing around with itemisation… (hell the forum is named BFA Items and Classes… Items comes first how???) Then they are distracted, unfocused and prone to make huge mistakes or run out of time.
Honestly I think the class developers need to take a step back and off load itemisation to another team, look at what they are doing and focus.
I am still surprised that after almost a decade, they get swallowed up in the echo chamber of their little sandboxes and don’t sit down with focus groups and nut these issues out. If they need input, they know the top raiders, pvpers, class specialists in the community… invite them to campus and have make a day of it.
I would just like to see them have a bit more imaginitive class design like they have in Overwatch or HotS… 14 year old MMO stereotypes are getting stale when they only recieve iterative updates not innovative ones. More utility, more flavour, and vote #1 Shadow Priest for Stealth Range Assassins.
I really think in some ways they should stop caring about balance. Yea a lot of people will roll FoTM for those specs that end up OP, but worry about fun first and foremost. Numbers can be tweaked after that. Topping meters isn’t that great if you’re bored doing it.
They have enough xpacs under their belt they can identify when classes were at their high point and iterate on those builds.
The issue is that they keep balancing our classes around gimmicks. Just balance the classes base and then add in all the extra stuff. Stop messing around with “Here’s this POWERFUL ITEM that your ENTIRE gameplay for 2+ years will be designed around.” It doesn’t work. No matter how many times they try it. Balance the classes, then add in the gimmick to make us powerful.
Yep. They keep doing the same thing over and over again while hoping for different results.
Core mechanics should always be paramount to any addons - balanced correctly while still being fun to play. ANy additional changes made in each expac should just add some cool/fun features onto the base package.
It looks to me like they have stopped caring about class balance.
The idea that people should just keep re-rolling until they find a spec that is fun is a non-starter and a way to make people to pointlessly waste their time looking for some holy grail that doesn’t exist.
As a ret paladin i have to support this great post.
been playing this toon since mid / late BC, i don’t feel like just throwing her away and reroll something better, i would rather stop playing then just play other almighty op melee like rogues / dhs, enjoyed ret paladins when they fitted the fantasy of a holy knight, but now it’s just a warrior with a pink name, without charge and ap buff, with a somewhat ok healing and 2 terrible buffs that can only buff 2 people, no auras, no raidwide cds, no damage increase for others, no anti-wipe mechanics, nothing, nothing else than just a plain, bland, clunky and pretty weak pink named warrior, but on 8.1 we will get new animations, and the dps will still suck, the cleave will still be non-existent, blessing of wisdom nerfed, dead talents will still be there, divine storm wil still hit like a wet noodle, and we will still bring absolutely nothing to a raid / m+…
i remember on wotlk on our last tier of icc, we had a 4p bonus that did what the new azerite trait will do, but the main difference is that divine storm was PRETTY STRONG on that time, and right now…well its probably the crappiest iteration of the skill from when it came out, till now.
a class with so much potential to be fun and strong, becomes nothing, well can’t really say much, its also some of the community fault, after all if ret paladins are strong everyone goes crazy and we get the nerfbat (even when some monster classes are just destroying everything) and in the end, we get nerfed, i was trying to convince myself that blizzard don’t hate paladins, they just don’t know what do with us, but seriously, check out the new ret pvp talent, what in the world is that joke? i feel they just like making fun of us…cause its not possible, just not possible for them to see what they did with the class / spec.
I use to think it was some kind of a meme that Blizzard designed for their favorite classes/specs, but recently that is what it seems like. Some Specs & classes seem to always be good & others just get gutted with no logic sense to it or reason.
Why can’t a Bear Tank use Healing spells in forms, but another tank with heals can, Why is Frenzied Regen on the GCD after being nerfed. Survival Abilities should never be on GCD ever. Why is Bear Threat so awful & damage so low compared to other tanks. I remember Thrash & Swipe use to be very strong.
Never in my 14 years of WoW, have I been so angry about a classes design direction. I’m not even gunna talk about Feral, the last time I played it was Cata & oh ya that was the last time it was good.
When my DH with 20 ilvls less was destroying my Ret that I have played since WotLK, I knew something was wrong. Everything you said is right. I played DH for awhile but knowing I could not play “my” class that I was known for in my community made me lose identity with this game and I refuse to play rather than play something else.
I know your post was serious and honest, but I totally giggled when I read that. Thanks for the laugh!