I disagree with the lockouts being shared

Exactly!!! This needs to become an issue so it can be reverted.

Who in their right mind would want to repeat the same raid 4 times in one week for gear? I dont see in any way shape or form how this is a bad change.


It’s bad when your guild goes into ICC to kill Marrowgar on heroic, can’t kill anything else, and then can’t go back and finish the raid on normal because of the shared lockout. In actual WotLK I certainly don’t remember doing 4 raids a week- it was a hyrbid approach of doing what we could on heroic, then switching the difficulty back to normal (in ICC anyway, but likely applies to ToC as well).

This system requires a guild/group be certain that they’re finished with normal gearing and committed to heroic progression. That or, if a 25m guild, they split their raid into two smaller groups to do the other difficulty, which leaves a few people playing offspecs and at least 5 members benched.

Pretty short sighted decision on Blizz part. They should leave it exactly as it was and let people decide how they want to play.

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uldar loot is 25m hardmode is 239 - ToC heroic is 258.
normal 10man is 232 - 10man heroic is 245. its already immediately invalidated.

the instance takes 30mins to do.

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and by limiting toc to only 1 difficulty per week you are cutting the ulduar loot being replaced each week in half, thus, Ulduar loot is still in play for longer

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Taking away 2 raids per week , taking away RDF, taking away subscriptions.

That’s easy math.

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It is my understanding that this is still the case. You start on ToGC, and if you fail the to open the chest, you open it on normal to finish the raid. Or you clear wing one of ICC on heroic and swap to normal for the rest.

Blizzard isn’t good at communicating their intent, but it was my understanding the ToC lockout change was to make the raids more consistent, therefore, it should be expected that ToC works as ICC does, where the normal/heroic lockout actually applies to the boss and not the raid instance.


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Congratulations. Most ppl however have no objections to this “change”, because even the majority of the sweaty min-maxers do not want to run ToC 4 times per week, per toon.

In fact, even for the time that was available in 2009, I’d reckon very very few raiders were actually running all 4 ToC per week, because very few were even able to clear Heroic ToGC to begin with.

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Except…that’s a retail mindset…kill what you can on higher difficulties then after wiping a million times ( so stupid) switch it over to normal. How about we just clear the raid on normal BEFORE going to heroic?

No one runs 4 toc per week anyway, if they do maybe only for the first week or two, that leaves you with 3 instances, 3 instances in total which has 15 bosses total and no trash, an entire tier 1/2 the length of naxx, kinda weird.

The real impact of these changes are

A. Less content
B. medium nerf to the human racial power spike in pvp
C. 1 bis trinket from t9 will now come from ulduar, instead of the normal version of toc 25, so you’ll be incentivized to backtrack through ulduar to fill that 2nd trinket slot

How is it a retail mindset, when that is literally how it worked during the actual expansion? Do you think locking guilds out of the easier content for the week just for having the gall to attempt heroic is good and will help with player retention? Yeah right, buddy.

You need to reread what was said because you are clearly confused.

I originally was against the lockout change as it was in the spirit of the original WOTLK, I have done a full 180 and completely agree with the developers decision to change the lockout system in WOTLK Classic. They are doing a wonderful job and I love this choice, its going to really save WOTLK and our entire community.

Not like you won’t still be running Uld in ToGC phase.

You’ll have 3-4 total Val’anyr to get depending on your raid setup
(2x holy paladin, 1x druid, 1x shaman) and at ~9weeks per that 27-36 weeks which is longer than the ulduar phase will likely last (probably 16-20 weeks)

So if they cut the time it takes to replace Ulduar loot by half that means we will be forced to farm Ulduar for longer making our “manditory raids” even more time consuming than an extra two thirty min raids.

I love how every change they do makes ZERO SENSE. They hide behind logic with their decision making yet they process no logic.

It’s not an issue, so it won’t be reverted. Cheerio.

a common forum topic that spanned the entirety of wolk was

"I am a 10man guild. I can’t do 25man. but a 25man guild can do 10man. it is not fair. they get twice the loot AND the higher ilvl. ".

I have now seen it both ways, with OP’s topic.
I like this forum. I will enjoy Wrath.

I totally agree. Especially considering the reasoning behind it:

while at the same time stating:

I feel that there might be 1-2 weeks (give or take) that a guild might be trying to run both, but any Heroic guild will quickly move past Normal for raid nights, and the raid team can/will PuG normal if they so desire, which is exactly inline with what they’ve stated the want.

Personally, I find this change to be much more impactful than the Dungeon Finder change, but it doesn’t seem that many people will make noise about it.

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