Remember this item ? I stumbled upon it recently :
https://www.wowhead.com/item=180088/handwritten-note
This is just heartbreaking. Those Kyrian guys, they’re something else, right ? Like, screw them.
It does raise a few questions that they needed the wisdom of some still living random from Azeroth to understand that their as-old-as-time system was fundamentally flawed and monstrous.
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Yes the questions raised are “why do the writers suck at creating believable and meaningful depth and nuance in their worldbuilding and why are they absolutely terrible at basic metaphysics like soteriology and hamartiology during a Death expansion”
In-universe it’s just “Ah the Kyrians are stupid and Kyrestia is arrogant but faced no consequences”
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Yes of course it ultimately boils down to terrible writing and overall lack of reflection on their own content but I also think the in-universe conclusion that Kyrians are stupid is equally important to point out
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I think a part of why the Kyrian story didn’t really hit as hard as they wanted to was because they were trying to sell a shallow narrative of ‘conformity is good and is an act of ultimate sacrifice.’ When in reality, a lot of WoWs playerbase consists of folks who generally exist outside of society norms and are generally proud/happy about being an individual, so the narrative they were trying to tell is extremely alienating.
Like wow, you want to hang on to the vestiges of your former self that you worked so hard to become proud of? What an IDIOT. Now join the hivemind and bow to your duty. Yeah, doesn’t really sound appealing.
Alexandros dodged a bullet, big time.
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As a narrative point it will never be addressed nor acknowledged within the narrative itself as an objectively correct discourse so here we are.
So it’s moot and meaningless sadly.
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Tbf. It was extremely funny to me that they just kinda shrug after dropping the farmer into perdition.
Truly a cosmic level feat of “This is above my paygrade”.
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Kleia: “Oh NO, Ben is going to the MAW!? This is HORRIBLE, I am DEVASTATED.”
Also Kleia: “… lol aight, anyway…”
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I think ‘needed’ is a strong word. I think Devos already had her doubts about the Path (you can see that she has doubts about the Arbiter’s judgment in the Bastion cinematic) but the revelation that Uther gave her about Arthas and the power he was using, followed by the Archon’s refusal to take her seriously is what tipped her over the edge.
After doing the Bastion campaign I understand why they remove their memories. The memories removed are often ones of pain and hardship, which hold a soul back rather than allow it to move on peacefully. That’s why Alexandros Mograine was not sent to Bastion, because even though he was a pious man who served the Light faithfully, his memories were a source of strength, not a burden. Of course the good memories are removed along with the bad, which is what Devos and the Forsworn take issue with.
Personally I think even if Uther had never gone to Bastion, Devos would have eventually turned on the Archon anyway. But we’ll never know for sure.
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I’d like to say “I can’t believe we never got a follow up to make sure Ben got out” but I actually can.
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Bastion is weird narratively. When we first learn about the memory erasure thing, we’re not really called upon to condemn it. While I could agree it’s horrible, nothing about it seemed… forced? I even recall (I think it was Palegos) saying that if someone felt they really, absolutely, could not walk the path, they could go the Arbiter to be reassigned (not in the current circumstances of course). Not to mention Mograine’s time in Bastion specifically addresses why someone like him would NOT belong in Bastion. All of Bastion problems ultimately stem from the anima drought. But it seems like a system that functions well enough when it’s most critical resource was flowing normally and had sensible enough arguments to justify its necessity.
For me personally, I didn’t react overly negatively because I approached the matter with a sense “I’m a stranger in a strange land, a guest, maybe I shouldn’t be so quick the judge.” and I feel maybe that was what the writers were going for?
Considering how Bastions story ends it makes me wonder if the backlash against the whole memory thing was less the authors organically writing the conclusion they planned for or a last minute course correction in response to said backlash.
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But this implies that bad memories are inherently undesirable, which is wrong, and is the Kyrians’ prime (and gross) misunderstanding. What makes you who you are is the sum of both your good and your bad memories. Cherishing what you’ve experienced in life means accepting and even holding on to its darker aspects. Remember what happens at the end of Chains of Domination when Uther revisits painful memories :
Afterwards, Pelagos told Uther that he could rid himself of the painful memories in time, but the Lightbringer replied that they served as “a reminder of lessons learned” and that he would never let them go if given the choice.
That one is given the option to get rid of their memories isn’t what’s at stakes ; what’s at stakes is the obligation of doing so. And actually, rather than a misunderstanding from the Kyrians, I think this conception is in-line with the very nature of the Shadowlands : it is the idea that only robots, blank pages, can deliver good justice, because they are supposedly “unbiased”. If you take a closer look at the Shadowlands, robots/loyal constructs/disposable, obedient servants are absolutely everywhere. I suspect it has to do with the fact that the Shadowlands might ultimately be nothing but Order’s take on what a good afterlife is like.
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Well in some ways they are, if I’m being honest. To get into real and serious topics for a moment, I was a victim of sexual assault, by a family member no less. I guarantee you there isn’t a day that goes by that I don’t wish that I could forget about that. So if Bastion were real and I was put in there, I’d relish having my memories pulled, because sure I lose the good memories, but I also lose the bad ones, and to me, that’s a sacrifice worth taking.
Some memories are simply too traumatic.
But you’re right, the path that the Kyrian followed is flawed and it took Devos’s rebellion to show the Archon that. I think the future path that they’re going to follow, which we indirectly helped usher them towards, is the best path forward. Memories taken if they choose to have them taken, otherwise they keep them. And of course, all the memories are stored in the archives, so most of them can be restored to the Kyrian over time.
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I am under the impression that the Forsworn rebellion would have eventually happened, one way or another, even without the Jailer’s involvement. That’s honestly what I felt going through the narrative, and that’s why I can’t agree with the fact that pre-Maw Walker Bastion was a functional system.
Personally I got an immediate, visceral negative reaction to what I saw in Bastion, but I guess that depends on one’s history and personality
I can only imagine what it’s like, but I can absolutely understand why some people would rather have their memories pulled, even if it meant losing the good ones as well. Didn’t mean to question the validity of such perspective of course. That the opposite reaction is equally understandable and defensible is all I’m saying, and in that regard I agree that the new path the Kyrians are currently working on definitely sounds way better
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She’s easily the most evil creature in all of existence.
She could teach Zoovy a thing or two.
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Actually there kind of was. Kyrian players are able to rescue Ben from Torghast and he then becomes one of their champions. There is no quest associated with freeing him and it’s easy to miss if he doesn’t spawn in a Torghast run or if the Kyrian!player feels they have enough champions and just ignores the rescue.
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Kyrian’s are DMV employees. The ultimate embodiment of apathy and indifference. They make IRS auditors look personable.
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The Kyrian plotline along with Devos feels like they originally had a different story that got cut, much like with a lot of Shadowlands, but they kept the pieces and just continued on.
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It definitely feels ill thought out so I wouldn’t be surprised if there had been more than what we actually got. But I guess that’s the nature of a lot of expansions (Still miffed that we never got the Naga Battlemaiden as a raid boss in Cataclysm!)
I think it would’ve made more sense to have Devos defect by exposing the influence of the Maw (per the storyline) but have the Archon be the actual bad guy in the end by trying to gaslight the Kyrian into believing everything in the SL was fine to try and cover-up her allegiance with the Jailer. Thus making the Forsworn aligned with the Archon and NOT Devos and have them be actual enemies that we didn’t feel mixed about having to thwart. By extension, this also wouldn’t have tarnished the characterization of Uther and also given a redemption arc for Devos, potentially having her ascend as the new Archon. But alas.
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Oh, well that’s good to know.
I never set foot in Torghast outside quests that required it because it was garbage, so that flew right by me.
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Blizzard pointed at the shape under the sheet on it’s laboratory table. “Behold, my creation!” They ripped off the sheet, revealing a horrible stitched together mishmash, which sat up moaning.
“Love… me…”
The fans recoiled in horror.
Shadowlands lurched forward, arms reaching. “Love me… love me!..”
The fans fled, screaming.
Shadowlands wailed and flailed its arms in the air. “If I cannot inspire love, I shall have to inspire fear!”
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