Hunter Tier Set Fixes

Onostoolan-zangarmarsh · March 18, 2022, 3:44am

Pretty much the Bug Fix {that made it good} to the 2Pce killed any advantage we had Sadly we cannot expect any change until W,F race is done if then.

Ghorak-laughing-skull · March 18, 2022, 8:19am

Pretty much this. One can understand that they refrain from making changes during the race, apart from bug fixes. Hopefully, when it’s done, they’ll actually do what they said they would…

Onostoolan-zangarmarsh · March 18, 2022, 4:06pm

BTW how are you simming that large of a increase Best I can manage is +361 dps I did not swap talent to Killer Cobra, though as of next week Chapter 7 completion we can use Rylacks which will favor IMO using AotB.

Beast Mastery:

BM 2pc - 9,794 DPS
BM w/o 2pc - 9,125 DPS
Difference - 669 DPS - 7.33% DPS Increase

I ran a sim with Killer Cobra It added an additional 93 dps making it a total of +454 dps

Cognizant-thunderlord · March 18, 2022, 7:12pm

Probably because I’m unlucky and have a ton of Mastery. Right now I’m just taking any upgrade that comes as I gear up, and it seems like everything has Mastery on it.

Faedrela-turalyon · March 18, 2022, 7:48pm

^^^^^^^^
Seriously This!!!
Why does so much gear have Mastery? I’m always struggling with this. Ugh!

Ok. I feel better

Cognizant-thunderlord · March 18, 2022, 8:42pm

Looking at your profile, you’re running 253 ilvl. That’s probably the discrepancy. My Hunter is at 262 ilvl, so the gap will be wider.

I also just realized I’ve been posting on my Priest this entire time. That’s the problem with having a name scheme with characters that look alike. Going to switch to my Hunter and post after this. lol

Cognition-norgannon · March 18, 2022, 8:47pm

This is my Hunter. As you can see, I’m partial to Worgens.

Onostoolan-zangarmarsh · March 18, 2022, 11:54pm

I have noticed my Mastery creeping up the last 2 weeks or so 26% now up from 20% before Mostly at the expense of Haste.

My playtime has been impacted by a Heart attack last month so trying to avoid high stress situations like High M+ keys. Getting Old sucks !

Legolasð-burning-blade · March 20, 2022, 5:04am

Thanks for posting your hunter:joy:

Angosia-whisperwind · March 21, 2022, 4:55am

For single target, Killer Cobra is definitely ahead of AotB. That said, it isn’t so far ahead that AotB will never be used. There’s a couple fights where it should be better (Skolex comes to mind most immediately) to use KC.

It sounds to me like there’s an inherent issue which you, Cognizant, and another have aptly pointed out (and this ignores the basic mechanics of it not functioning well with Venthyr at all): The set bonuses are too weak vs other specs. The next issue is the baseline damage with and without legendaries, with and without tier set bonuses: BM is too undertuned at baseline.

It might do with restatement (not for your edification, but for blue CM posts that need a summary) what issues we have outstanding at the moment.

This “fix” to add a possible chance to increase beast cleave and sacrifice damage is not an improvement.
Increased beast cleave duration does not increase our aoe damage
Our beast cleave damage is very weak as is vs other specs and classes
Multi-shot hits like a wet noodle
Kill command really should cleave (which would make sense as the alternative to the proposed increased duration of beast cleave)
The 4pc does not mechanically work with Venthyr hunters as the proc that is the covenant ability steps on this proc - you must choose your covenant or choose your proc. Spoiler alert: Either choice nets a dps LOSS as a result; You cannot win in this scenario
The 2pc causes issues for Kyrian running over crit cap with resonating arrow’s crit buff in addition to the set bonus crit for kill command (though, it does not run afoul of the rest of the crit buff affecting literally anything else that is not kill command)
The 2 and 4pc bonuses are extremely undertuned for the spec relative to other specs and classes in terms of raw power - both in theory and in practice.
Baseline DPS, with and without legendaries, with and without set bonuses is undertuned relative to other specs and classes in all situations: Single target and AoE.
Pet attacks should trigger things like Dream Delver and similar functions. Loss of procs because pet attacks do not trigger them cause scaling issues (as also demonstrated with Demonology Warlocks) with both single target and aoe damage.

Cognition-norgannon · March 21, 2022, 5:00am

Add to your list:

Pet attacks should trigger things like Dream Delver and similar functions. This would solve the problem with the new Multi-Shot addition to our set bonus actually reducing our AoE damage.

Angosia-whisperwind · March 21, 2022, 5:12am

Done. I listed it as more of an issue with scaling - which it would be for both single target and aoe.

Cognition-norgannon · March 21, 2022, 5:33am

It’s definitely a big issue. Many of us have brought it up before, but have never received a response from Blizzard. It’s kind of an ignore it and pretend it doesn’t exist response from the Devs.

Go run some meters with your pets. Dream Delver ONLY increases the Hunter’s damage and not their pets. I’ve run meters without ever adding stacks of Dream Delver and my pet does exactly the same amount of damage as when the dummy has three stacks.

Since our pets are about half our damage, that makes abilities like Dream Delver half as effective for pet classes as others. It’s a massive oversight and likely one of the main reasons we’re doing so poorly this expansion.

Bepples-barthilas · March 21, 2022, 5:37am

Season after season we have to deal with poorly-thought-out borrowed power mechanics that don’t work properly with pets. Remember when the big Benthic crit piece bonus in Eternal Palace didn’t work with pets? Or the entire Thrill of the Hunt talent for the first year of BFA? The worst part is it isn’t obvious that they don’t work with pets; it requires testing and analysis. This is the sort of amateurism we expect out of classic WoW, not almost 20 years in. Blizzard likes to envision a game without theorycrafting where their design “just works” and players don’t need to know anything about the inner workings, but they design things so sloppily and inconsistently we’re always having to fix their broken crap for them.

Angosia-whisperwind · March 21, 2022, 6:23am

Even non-borrowed power mechanics don’t work properly with pets. Sinful revelation comes to mind. It’s almost always better to use procs that don’t affect your damage on a percentage based because pets are never included in that. Warlocks recently “sort of” got a fix via a talent that helped them scale (in this context, demonology) with some of their pet damage. Consequently, they’re in a slightly better position - and currently scale significantly better than beastmaster hunters.

What is telling to me is looking at the maximum possible dps for a mobile class and noticing that ferals got a much deserved aoe boost via their 4pc. Their sustained aoe damage is extremely close to our sustained single target damage - at max gear levels for both. That is not bad for them, it is, however, very bad for us.

We will be at the lowest of the tier when everyone acquires their 4pc and double legendary. Simply put, we have mechanical issues as well as scaling issues. It is already showing up in the top tier mythic guilds where BM hunters are not quite at the bottom – yet, but soon will be once everyone gets their double legendaries in a couple days. We’re super close to last place now for that reason (source: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/29#dataset=95 and https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/29#dataset=90). If you look at representation, the number of beastmaster hunters has dropped precipitously as well - and I don’t blame them.

In effect, the delta was low before tier sets. Medium with tier sets. Wide with double legendaries + tier sets. It will be stunningly and glaringly obvious. And, through it all, Blizzard says absolutely nothing on this topic.

Blizzard, you asked us for our feedback three separate times. You did not respond to it. You said you wanted to address feedback issues. In your own words. When called to task on not doing so, you continue radio silence. This is not the image you want.

Ghorak-laughing-skull · March 21, 2022, 11:44am

Agreed. One such example can be found below…

Talent: Animal Companion

Introduced in mid beta of BfA. Still not applied correctly to our characters/pets/guardians/companions.

It’s still coded to affect any and all pets/guardians that accompany us. Most recent example is Pocopoc in ZM. Use AC and he deals 35% reduced damage with his attacks as well.

Angosia-whisperwind · March 21, 2022, 4:32pm

Am I correct in assuming that you’re supporting the position of effects not working on our pets? I’m only asking because it’s hard to tell with your response.

Ghorak-laughing-skull · March 21, 2022, 6:23pm

No, I’m agreeing with you. My example was one that supports the statement that they frequently fail to properly include/apply effects to our pets/guardians.

Angosia-whisperwind · March 21, 2022, 7:06pm

That makes sense. I think it was the quotes and the response that made it somewhat ambiguous.

Jayeasy-tichondrius · March 22, 2022, 7:13am

right now there’s a Vigil/4pc tierset bug that causes the game to not count a follow up cast toward the 4pc counter if a Double Tapped Aimed Shot triggers a Vigil buff and if the secondary Aimed Shot cast’s focus contribution would push the counter over 40. If it does, the game actually counts the secondary Aimed to the focus count and causes the game to ignore the next contributing cast’s focus toward the 4pc counter.

Focus toward 4pc is at 5 when this cast starts:

18:52:19> Your Trick Shots applied You.
18:52:19> Your Secrets of the Unblinking Vigil applied You.
18:52:19> Your Double Tap faded You.
18:52:19> You cast Aimed Shot Dungeoneer’s Training Dummy.
18:52:19> Your Trick Shots faded You.
18:52:20> Your Secrets of the Unblinking Vigil faded You.
18:52:25> You cast Serpent Sting Dungeoneer’s Training Dummy.
18:52:27> You cast Serpent Sting Dungeoneer’s Training Dummy.
18:52:29> You cast Serpent Sting Dungeoneer’s Training Dummy.
18:52:31> You cast Serpent Sting Dungeoneer’s Training Dummy.
18:52:31> Your Trick Shots applied You.
18:52:31> Your Secrets of the Unblinking Vigil applied You.

As you can see it required 40 to proc afterwards, as only the first Aimed Shot’s focus contributed, which ended it at 0. Also note the secondary Aimed Shot consuming the Vigil buff that the first had just given me.

Now consider casting when the focus count toward the 4pc proc is at 10:

16:34:25> Your Trick Shots applied You.
16:34:25> Your Secrets of the Unblinking Vigil applied You.
16:34:25> Your Double Tap faded You.
16:34:25> You cast Aimed Shot Dungeoneer’s Training Dummy.
16:34:26> Your Trick Shots faded You.
16:34:26> Your Trick Shots applied You.
16:34:26> Your Secrets of the Unblinking Vigil faded You.
16:34:35> You cast Serpent Sting Dungeoneer’s Training Dummy.
16:34:37> You cast Serpent Sting Dungeoneer’s Training Dummy.
16:34:39> You cast Serpent Sting Dungeoneer’s Training Dummy.
16:34:41> You cast Serpent Sting Dungeoneer’s Training Dummy.
16:34:43> You cast Serpent Sting Dungeoneer’s Training Dummy.
16:34:43> Your Trick Shots applied You.

A whole 50 focus was required to proc this new one, as the first Serpent Sting’s focus contribution was ignored. You can also see the extra Trickshots applied event from the secondary Aimed Shot proccing Trick Shots with the tier by pushing it over 40. In this case Vigil is also consumed, unless the secondary Trick Shots application successfuly rolls a Vigil proc, in which case it would have refreshed.
And to re-emphasize, Vigil has to be triggered for any of this to happen. Vigil seems to be a magical entity whose existence moves the order of buff triggers and other stuff around for some reason.

So still a few cases of munching going on that plagued us on PTR.