If you dont think exhilaration is over a 50% heal as bm… test it. Lose a dual them pop it. You will see it jump several times. For my it will heal my from sub 5% to full with the conduit and leech. Keep in mind leech effects EVERYTHING.
BTW as you pointed out I was doing 280hps thats just from me, not my pets. That a 100% uptime hot.
Neither leech not spirit mend will save you in a clutch moment. However doing 700k self healing over a raid is 700k healing the healers did not need to do.
Ferocity is the way to go with the nerfs to spirit mend.
Oh BTW, you forgot part of your exhilaration math. Its a 30% heal to you are 100% to each pet. So you get the leech from the heal you did to yourself plus the pets, people forget that leech is one of the strongest tertiary stats in game.
Raids. Unquestionably in raids. As I pointed out before. Solo, you use Ferocity, because the leech heals your pet for a ton. 5-mans, you’ll often use Ferocity simply for lust (though if you have a shaman or mage, spirit beasts are also quite strong there). PvP, you obviously use Cunning+MS.
Rot damage to the point where you’re constantly under 100% and thus able to actually use that leech healing is relatively rare. Spirit Mend concentrates the healing into specific periods where you take damage. And it provides a DR cooldown, something people seem to insist on forgetting.
Literally did.
Ya, I’mma need proof for that. I tested it, it was a 53% heal for me, as I stated in my response to you. The conduit adds another ~15% HP, and that doesn’t heal your pets, so no additional leech from that. You said, and I quote:
It only even approaches 80% with the conduit.
And as I pointed out:
You’re trickle-healing yourself when you could do equal or more total healing via Spirit Mend, concentrated when you need it, targetable on allies (or Kael’thas), and have a bonus DR cooldown. I guarantee you that proper usage of that DR cooldown will prevent more damage than that leech is healing anyway.
No. No I didn’t. I was only counting the leech portion, since you get the 30% heal regardless of pet spec. The only benefit of the ferocity pet is the additional healing from the leech.
You do know you gain leech from self healing right?? So you get leech heals from the conduit and the actual self heal. Leech matters for EVERYTHING you do
Really, this comes down to you-do-you, if you want to use a ferocity pet. But there’s a reason that the vast majority of top-end BM hunters are still using a Spirit Beast, or at the least some form of Tenacity pet. That DR cooldown is bank.
I can’t log in to test that at the moment, but even if that’s the case, that’s all of, what, ~2% additional max HP per cast of Exhil? That’s not going to suddenly move the needle from 53% to 80%, especially since you said the conduit was extra, above and beyond your 80% claim. You just now made a claim that it would take you from 5% to full, which is vastly more than what is possible even with the 2 pets, Aspect of the Beast, and a high-itemlevel conduit.
Edit: Seriously. Exhil is 30% on you, plus ~15% more over 10s from the conduit. It also heals both of your pets for 100%, each of which have 77% of your HP. You get 15% of all of that as leech. Assuming none of that overheals, that’s, at most, 30% + 15% + (30% + 15% + 77%*2)*0.15 = 74.85%. That’s the absolute max you can get out of it, and it requires none of that to go to waste.
Now, I won’t argue that a Ferocity pet unquestionably makes Exhilaration a stronger heal, but it’s not the 5%-to-full you make it out to be, and you’re losing a 20% DR cooldown in the process. Ferocity on that is gaining you 30% additional healing (you’d gain 45% HP from Exhil plus the conduit regardless), and SotF can exceed that gain in damage reduction if you’re only taking 25% of your HP per second over the duration, which is actually pretty easy to hit in higher difficulties.
Oh, and additional offset due to Tenacity pets adding 5% to both Exhil and the conduit healing due to higher HP. So that’s an advantage of only 25% HP rather than 30%, reducing the damage intake needed to equal to only 21%/s.
Sarcastic as that reply clearly is, it highlights a rather good point. If we’re able to have this lively a debate on which pet is “better”, that probably means they’re fairly well balanced. I’d still prefer if pet family (and thus pet choice) were entirely divorced from the selection of pet utility and abilities, but it’s at least better than the “spirit beast or GTFO” that was BfA.
I mean, I still think it’s silly to argue that ferocity pets are better, but it’s clear they’re at least reasonably comparable, especially with the potency increase to Exhilaration factored in. You get one less cooldown, but your one healing cooldown is more or less doubled in potency, which isn’t nothing.
Where would I find evidence of this? I think the jury is still out without hard numbers to back it up.
Judging from logs, it’s far from clear cut. Warcraftlogs seems to indicate that MM does more healing than the other two hunter specs (overall, but not every fight). I’m not sure why this would be the case.
There are some indications that BM does better on a few fights (Huntsman, Council, Sun King, and Shriekwing for instance), but there are still quite a few MM Hunters in the top 100.
Plus, when I dug down into the individual fights (about two dozen BM healing parses), the BM Hunters were ALL running Leech pets. I didn’t find a single BM Hunter running a Spirit Beast. Remember, this is me selecting Heroic Castle and sorting by Hunter and Healing done.
Exhilaration actually accounts for only 1/3 to 1/2 the healing done by Leech.
Of course, this doesn’t account for over-healing (or maybe it does - not sure how healing stats work on Warcraftlogs).
Absent any other information, this seems to strongly favor Leech pets as best in slot for self-heals in raids.
Edit: I looked a little further into this, and BM (265hps) is actually healing for ~65% more then MM (168). I’m not sure where the disconnect it. That said, I still haven’t found a single BM Hunter (sorted by healing) that is running a Spirit Beast.
On BFA, there was a stage when I used Spirit Beasts - Tenacity Pets as BM. Later on when I got geared, Ferocity Pets took over for me on PvE World. I was soloing all PvE elites on PvE World with a Ferocity Pet. My chosen Ferocity Pets were the Bees becoz of my matching Bee mount and the Shadowbarb Drones also becoz of matching Shadowbard mount. I completed up to M+16 on BFA and Heroic Nzoth all on Dungeon Finder using either the Bees or Barb Drones. I only used Hati few times when trying to make other Classes jealous that I could ride as a mount my Pet.
On Shadowlands, I switched to MM at day 1. I use a pet on Torghast as MM but I am just using a Turtle (shadowlands version). But I dont need any special Tenacity Pet becoz they are just diversion as my main weapon is not my pet… it’s my Range Weapon.
I only checked about 10, but 5 of those 10 were running Spirit Beasts. I was looking at the DPS ranking rather than the healing ranking, since healing ranking for a DPSer is heavily dependent on how the fight actually flows.
I mean, I thought I was clear on this. The reason leech is inferior is not because it does less raw healing. It’s because in most cases, a very large percentage of that healing is entirely wasted. The top of the healing ranking is clearly going to be dominated by the outliers that managed to get the vast majority of their leech as effective healing. That doesn’t mean that’s representative of the norm for ferocity pets.
Look at the HPS, then drill into one of the hunters. You will see the HPS matches the healing sorted value used for ranking.
Then select Raw Healing. That will give you the amount of overhealing. In my case, that was 1237.4 with 59% overheal.
That is NOT the number they use to rank healing. They are sorting by the actual healing done (532.4).
This is proof-positive that Leech is doing more healing than Spirit Mend in raids.
Otherwise, you would see BM Hunters with Spirit Beasts out if you sorted by healing. You don’t. The only thing you see are Hunters without any Spirit Mend casts.
Unless you have some facts to dispute this, the reasoning is sound.
BTW, this is a really bad example for overhealing. As far as I can tell, the general overhealing done by leech is about 35%, although I would need to dig deeper to determine the exact number.
I’m not sure if you’re trying to be funny, but all these numbers reference raw HPS, not total healing and not overhealing. That’s what WarcraftLogs sorts by.
I updated the post to reference HPS so nobody else is confused by semantics.
At this point, I feel like I’m butting my head against the wall. I think I’ve made my point. If I was wrong, I would have admitted it, and posted the information. I don’t like fighting losing arguments. I only care about facts.
Ugh. Now this is new information. I didn’t even notice that this post was from October.
Because those are the highest-performing hunters in their roles. And also because it’s not the healing chart, and thus isn’t unfairly biased towards extreme outliers on healing, but is biased towards the highest DPS output, and thus the highest potential from leech.
Also, to more directly answer your question, we’re talking about healing FROM DAMAGE, so yes, DPS is directly related to that.
My argument is that a strong proportion of the best-performing hunters in the world are using spirit beasts. My data clearly supports that.
Yes, exactly. Which means that the HPS ranking charts specifically for a class like hunter are going to have at the top those that got an unusually low percentage of overhealing! That should be self-obvious, actually. The charts always have the outliers at the top, so if you’re looking at the healing charts, you’re going to see those that got the absolutely maximum possible mileage out of their leech.
And my entire point is, that’s not typical! In most cases, a large chunk of that leech is simply entirely wasted. I even cited a log above, from another poster in this thread, with ~40% overhealing. Referencing the healing charts just proves that ferocity has a higher maximum potential, which is not something I’m arguing against. My argument is that a very large chunk of that potential is wasted in the large majority of raid fights. That’s why the healing rankings aren’t relevant here, because I’m not discussing maximum potential, I’m discussing average results.
Oh, also, speaking of overhealing, leech events don’t even occur if you’re at 100% HP, so the “overhealing” metric in WarcraftLogs for leech is a horrible under-representation of actual overhealing. You need to add up the raw sources where that leech would come from, and calculate what the leech should be from those, and then compare it to actual leech healing.
I would rather enjoy the day when these kind of old AF discussions stop.
Why ? because, plainly, it doesnt lead anywhere.
Why ? because, basically, blizz would do whatever TF they want.
They’ll nerf, they’ll buff, and whatsoever independently of the amount of OP saying “Revert this or I’ll stop paying my subs”
Instead of claiming and discussing we should be giving opinions for new or better things in upcoming patches.
For instance, another player has suggested in another post, a way to make your pet customizable so that you can choose whatever tf you like most and use the abilities whatever you like most.
THIS seems interesting. THIS seems new. It seems fresh. It seems something I’d really like to see in future as a new system for pets - it is by no means perfect - but it gives a lot of customization, flavour and engagement to the pet system.