MC/BWL/Both AQs/Naxx had variations of hard modes. I liked SoD introducing that system, I personally think it worked very well.
I think my biggest disappointment was that this raid didn’t, especially being the last phase/raid, and only (at least in my eyes) has catered to a very small minority percentage of players and excluded/made unhappy the majority of the rest of the SoD population. In terms of not being centered around 20man guilds and loot disparity in having to bring more/finding more people to raid with. Again these are my personal views/beliefs/feelings.
Some may feel this way, some may not, but I reckon to think I’m not the only one in this wheel house of thinking.
You’re claiming you can’t actually play the game while also insisting that you’re actively raiding—which is contradictory. If you’re raiding, then clearly, you’re playing the game; if you’re not playing, then how exactly are you evaluating someone else’s logs?
Also, you’re conveniently hiding behind a level 80 retail toon, yet you’re judging my parses. If you’re so confident in your critiques, why not post on your main character, so your own logs can be held to the same scrutiny? Criticizing others while avoiding accountability for your own performance is just deflecting.
Retail logs don’t hold the same weight as SoD logs, because the two versions of the game operate under completely different mechanics, balance, and progression structures. Comparing logs between the two is irrelevant, since retail tuning, gearing, and encounter designs function differently than SoD’s progression model.
If you’re trying to justify a critique using retail logs, that doesn’t translate to SoD performance. The raid structure, class balance, and consumable economy work differently, so your retail parses aren’t an accurate measure of capability in Scarlet Enclave or any other SoD content.
If you’re going to judge someone’s logs, it should be done in the relevant game mode—not by using inapplicable retail data as a shield to avoid scrutiny.
I on a whole think Scarlet Enclave is a great raid. I really enjoy progging personally. I just think that more people should experience it in the way that they want to experience it and I see a lot of people falling off. Some of this is due to it being the last phase of sod and some of this is due to low morale from the raid and not feeling rewarded for their time relative to previous loot expectations.
I think an optional icc buff and some loot changes to separate difficulties could really make this a great raid tier
For some that means 20man team with a buff but less loot and no mount drops, for some that means 40 people with no buff and mounts dropping.
best way to go about it that ive heard would be to drop 1 of each type of token (i believe there are three) per boss.
would solve the issue of getting screwed with the same type of token a million times (and getting rid of the rng on it) and add 1 extra token per boss along with all the other regular loot of the boss.
its overdue time for something like this as its been 4 weeks already and would be something that wouldnt hurt at all .
the sweats and the top 10% of people have had their time , now is time for the dads.
Claiming retail is harder is oversimplifying the differences between SoD and retail without considering raid design, class balance, and consumable economy. Retail encounters might have mechanically complex fights, but Scarlet Enclave has stricter resource management, limited progression flexibility, and harsher tuning built around pre-determined raid scaling—making difficulty a matter of design philosophy rather than a direct comparison.
Retail offers more recovery tools, expanded abilities, and encounter scripting designed for modern balance, while SoD limits player utility, creating a different form of difficulty rooted in tighter class limitations and pre-set gearing paths. If anything, difficulty is relative to the tools available, meaning neither game mode is inherently “harder”—they are fundamentally different challenges.
If you’re dismissing SE’s difficulty without actually experiencing the constraints it imposes, then the argument isn’t about which is harder—it’s about recognizing the distinct design philosophies of each version.
Let’s be real—SoD doesn’t actually require much skill to play. It’s a nostalgia-fueled side mode with simplified mechanics, forgiving tuning, and minimal execution checks. Acting like it’s some elite proving ground is just delusional.
Retail, on the other hand, demands real coordination, awareness, and mechanical mastery. encounters are designed to punish even minor mistakes, and the level of individual responsibility is leagues above anything SoD throws at you. So yeah, retail logs do matter—because they reflect actual skill under pressure.
Trying to dismiss retail performance just exposes how shallow SoD really is. If you want to gatekeep based on logs, maybe make sure you’re playing a version of the game that actually requires effort.
Nice wall of text, but it still dodges the point: complexity and skill expression in retail are on another level. You’re romanticizing SoD’s constraints as if they somehow make the game harder, when in reality, they just reduce player agency. Limited class kits, static gearing paths, and scaled encounters don’t equal difficulty—they reduce decision-making and flatten skill ceilings.
Sure, SoD forces you into tighter boxes with fewer options, but that’s not harder—it’s just restrictive. Retail demands players juggle mechanics, optimize performance across a broader toolkit, and execute under punishing conditions where one person’s mistake can wipe the group. That’s actual difficulty, not nostalgia-driven minimalism.
Calling the two “fundamentally different” doesn’t erase the fact that one of them was designed for a modern audience that expects challenge and precision. The other’s a curated throwback that lowers the bar by design. If you think managing mana and farming limited consumables is the pinnacle of skill, maybe you’re just allergic to real mechanical pressure.
Give them 6 weeks, then after that, gradually nerf the raid with the ICC buff. Once the raid is nerfed, it’s never going back—the nerfed state will last far longer than any other phase.
Players have made solid progress over the last 3 weeks, with many still pushing toward their 8/8 clear. Let them finish their progression before implementing nerfs—otherwise, groups that are on the cusp of clearing won’t have the chance to complete the challenge as intended before difficulty drops. Structured, gradual nerfs help balance accessibility while still preserving the original difficulty for those finishing their progression. Would this approach better respect the natural progression timeline of raid teams?
please stop trying to 1v1 the computer and respond to actual humans instead .
well it solves a few problems really , like the fact that you dont get hosed on the same 1 type of tier token dropping like 20000 times and everyone on that tier all having it and some people still only have the 1 welfare piece from frags.
You’re making a sweeping generalization about SoD’s difficulty while completely disregarding its unique challenges. Just because SoD operates differently than Retail doesn’t mean it lacks skill expression—it emphasizes resource management, strategic execution, and tuning that punishes poor coordination in ways that Retail simply doesn’t mirror.
Retail has mechanically complex fights, but it also comes with far more recovery tools, expanded abilities, and modern balance adjustments. SoD, meanwhile, limits player utility, which creates difficulty in a different way—by forcing players to adapt within tighter constraints. Reduced recovery options, stricter consumable usage, and encounter tuning built around pre-determined raid scaling all impact progression difficulty in a way that Retail’s flexibility doesn’t match.
Claiming that Retail logs matter more assumes that the two games measure skill in the same way—which they don’t. If you’re using Retail logs as a shield to avoid posting your actual SoD performance, then your argument isn’t about difficulty—it’s about avoiding accountability.
If you actually want to compare skill expression, post your SoD logs, so we can see how your performance holds up in the relevant game mode instead of hiding behind Retail numbers that don’t apply here.
You’re clinging to the idea that “different” automatically means “equally challenging,” but it doesn’t. SoD’s constraints aren’t some high-skill crucible—they’re artificial limitations designed to create nostalgia-flavored difficulty. Having fewer tools doesn’t magically make the game harder—it just means players are operating with a crutch and calling it “design.”
Retail demands far more in terms of execution, precision, and mechanical awareness. You can talk all you want about “resource management” and “pre-determined raid scaling,” but at the end of the day, SoD rarely punishes individual failure the way Retail does. It’s one thing to micromanage mana; it’s another to solo-handle multiple fight mechanics while outputting top-tier DPS in a Mythic raid. That’s skill expression.
And let’s be honest—if SoD were truly the test of elite performance you’re painting it as, you wouldn’t be so desperate to discredit Retail experience. You don’t want logs—you want validation. But hiding behind design philosophy doesn’t make your version of the game any less shallow. Retail players don’t need to “prove” they can handle SoD. They’ve already been doing more with more, for longer.
Now, if you’re so confident SoD is the real test, feel free to drop your logs first. Let’s see what elite play looks like under those “tight constraints.”
You’re mischaracterizing SoD’s difficulty by assuming that having fewer tools automatically means lower skill expression—which ignores the challenges unique to the raid environment. SE doesn’t just limit abilities for nostalgia’s sake; it forces players to optimize within strict constraints, meaning resource management, cooldown efficiency, and precise execution become essential instead of optional.
Retail encounters have mechanical complexity, but they also give far more recovery tools to manage mistakes. SE strips away those modern conveniences, meaning every mistake is significantly more punishing—so while Retail may have more mechanics per fight, SE forces players to handle encounters with fewer fail-safes, demanding a different type of skill.
Your claim that SE doesn’t punish individual failure the same way Retail does ignores the class limitations, consumable restrictions, and encounter tuning that make SE its own challenge. Just because the difficulty is structured differently doesn’t mean it’s easier—it’s simply designed to be a different kind of endurance test.
Also, if you’re going to demand logs, maybe post yours first instead of avoiding scrutiny behind an alt. If SE is so shallow, prove it—let’s see how you navigate these “tight constraints” without the modern tools that make Retail’s difficulty different.
Chili is the funniest because it’s pretty easy to farm the small flame sacs but people are just that lazy those selling are able to mark them up so high.
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