How to fix M+ pugging, lack of tanks heals and toxicity

Community General Discussion
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You are the one who initiated with me. Did you forget that troll? There’s many reasons for keys to deplete which have been explained in this thread and any others of this type.

Keys deplete for many reasons. One of which is to curb the rate of players failing upwards. This happens every season the longer it goes on where people end up in key levels they are not skilled enough for from crest/vault farmers. Keys not depleting will only make it exponentially worse. They will get carried, intentionally or not, into max vault and now have it for the rest of the season. Constantly bringing down other pugs and making the pug scene way worse than it already is.

You only think this is a good idea because of the extreme short sighted benefit to yourself. It’s actually extremely selfish because it will be detrimental.

Currently we have leavers and making keys not deplete won’t change that. Instead, it will only add a new issue of key holders kicking others so that they can “start over”. We don’t have people being kicked right now, but once keys don’t deplete you will. We will see countless threads about people leaving and people getting kicked.

Blizzard also stated that keys are here to stay because they specifically do not want players to target farm dungeons. If someone wants to farm a dungeon right now they have to find someone else who has a key. This isn’t something that’s going to change.

That’s because it is fine or their ideas are bad. You trying to leverage your IO as a means to substantiate your argument is also terribad and I showed you exactly why. 2700 < 2850.

I’ve written a long and detailed thread about non-hyperbolic changes to M+ but those threads die out because there’s no controversy. All of these get rid of timers and key depletions are just trolling at this point. They don’t want real solutions they just want to make noise.

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If a key doesn’t deplete you don’t fail upwards. You just don’t fail downwards, you stay at the same level.

If someone is unable to finish their 10 key because they got carried in a 9 they are free to lower their key at the npc.

I have no problem with people getting carried, it happens all the time anyway. I just want to be able to pug my own key without fear of someone else causing it to get lower, and getting stuck in a failure loop. Having my time wasted when someone with high IO makes a mistake and wipes us, leading to someone leaving, is bad enough. I don’t also need to be stuck with a 9 key on top of that, and therefore have to risk dropping my 9 to 8 and having my time wasted even more as a result.

We don’t know if it’ll be detrimental until it gets implemented. You are treating keys not depleting as a boogeyman to help your own argument. I get it, I can see on your profile the only content you do is keys, so your scared of change.

It won’t change that, but now at least the key holder won’t get double punished for it.

And how is this worse than disbanding the group when its obvious the timer won’t be achieved anyway?

Which is effectively the same thing, a time waste for the entire party. Again though, at least the key hold wouldn’t be punished twice.

Oh no, not another “Blizzard can’t change something because they said X” post. I really should make an archive of all of the things Blizzard said they can’t or won’t do and later did anyway.

If it was fine there wouldn’t be people saying it isn’t and Blizzard wouldn’t be looking into it like they said they are.

Its actually to avoid the “You just want change cuz your garbage” trolls.

Lol.

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It’s the only place where keys don’t deplete. That’s why I bring it up. And the behavior that comes from keys not depleting is awful. No thanks. You need the risk of failure to get players to commit to trying even if a group stumbles.

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If keys don’t deplete you can keep running that key even if you are not ready for that key level. Again, leading to you constantly dragging down other groups. This is the definition of failing upwards because when you fail a key that cannot deplete you can only go up.

Who is going to do that when 10s give top tier loot in the vault and the key doesn’t deplete? Who are you kidding here? They are going to keep the 10 and keep running it until they can continued to get carried.

That’s the problem. Just because it happens already doesn’t mean it is good for the pug community for it to happen at a much higher rate.

Okay? It will be exponentially worse if keys don’t deplete. If you think IO/Score doesn’t mean much now, it will mean much less if depletions are removed.

How is getting kicked worse than groups disbanding? Are you serious? Look who isn’t trying to discuss this in good faith now? You are literally trolling at this point.

It’s a literal fact.

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Do you understand why those players are doing what they are doing? They’re practicing for MDI or for key pushing on live servers. Acting like this is how M+ would behave in general is ignorant at best and disingenuous at worst.

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It’s honestly hilarious that anyone who makes an argument that goes against your opinions is ignorant, disingenuous, or tolling.

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your suggestions are amazing!

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And what determines if you are ready for a key level? Earning that key level. How you earned it is irrelevant.

Except you literally don’t go up if you don’t time the key. This is actually just the literal definition of being unable to fail downwards. Also, if they need to be carried through their 10, why do you care? If you join someone’s group and they’re doing less dps than the tank or healer, you are free to leave and let them refill until they find people willing to carry them. Having more groups in general also helps solve the problem you claim will be created.

People literally unable to complete a 10 key at all. Also you are forgetting that even if you complete a 10, if you fail to time it you start with a 9 next week. So they don’t have a forever 10 key. They have to beat the 9 every week to earn the opportunity to run the 10.

People get carried in every aspect of this game anyway, and for real money. It doesn’t matter anymore, the WoW token took that away.

I have no issue with this. You do. Agree to disagree.

According to who? This is your assumption, not a fact.

I didn’t know there was a level lower than not mattering at all. I’ve had 3k IO players not know how a bosses mechanics work and deplete my key and leave. IO means nothing to me as it is, the only reason I brought up my IO was to pre counter the inevitable “lol your just garbage at the game and want to be handed/carried through everything” comments.

No I am serious. Instead of resorting to name calling maybe explain.

Its a literal opinion.

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No, its how they go about doing it. Like bringing up tournament realms that less than 0.01% of players use.

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Not dying every pull, knowing the trash and boss mechanics, having enough dps/hps throughput, the list goes on. You don’t “earn” the key level, you got it through group effort. It doesn’t mean you individually are skilled for it.

I didn’t say you go up when you don’t time. I said you can only go up meaning you can’t go down. There is only room to fail upwards when keys don’t deplete.

Why do I care? Because I pug and it would negatively impact my experience and everyone elses when score inflation happens exponentially faster than before.

Leaving and getting kicked from groups is not what more people will define as “fun”.

You act like people don’t get a 10 key then fill it with 2800 players. They already are dead weight. Like I said, this would only exacerbate the problem.

Doesn’t matter what you think. Many people do, like I said. This has been my stance from the beginning. My initial post was a simple statement of many people are against it and you lost your mind cause you didn’t agree with it. Did I say all people? No. Did I say most people? No. You literally cannot comprehend the issue and argument because you can’t see past the short sighted benefit to yourself.

LOL are you serious? You are the only one here name calling.

No, it’s because you can’t handle it when someone makes an argument you disagree with. Look at this right here. You initiated this with me when I wasn’t even directing my post towards you. You made it about yourself.

You wanted me to explain why I disagree with removing depletions and I did. Now that I did, I can go back to using your own argument. 2850>2700. I guess I win.

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So either way it doesn’t mean you were individually skilled for it. So again, why does it matter? Are you just afraid of joining a bad pug and knowing that they won’t get double punished for being bad? It just sounds to me like “I’m mad that this terrible player wasted my time and take solace in the fact that he has his time wasted twice as much as me!”

No, there is an option to fail sideway and not go up or down if keys don’t deplete. If there wasn’t a deplete system and I complete a 10 key over time or the group falls apart before finishing, the key doesn’t go up. So I literally failed and didn’t go up. Making

false.

So I was right with the “How dare this noob waste my time, he deserves punishment” comment. Got it.

Which already happens anyway, and the keyholder gets double punished (potentially more than double if their 9 fails as well). No one defines having your key deplete because of someone else’s mistakes as “fun” either.

Again, you only care because you don’t want to be the 2800 player who carries someone you consider to be bad. Just leave their group and move on, don’t punish them twice over because you think they are bad and deserve it.

Many people do have an issue with this. This type of logic loop does nothing. There are people who like M+ as is, there are people who do not and want keys to no longer deplete.

My initial post to you was actually pointing out you were using a logical fallacy to counter a logical fallacy, which doesn’t prove anything. I also didn’t “lose my mind”.

And you can’t see past the short sighted benefit to yourself with how keys currently work. We’re both arguing for different things for self benefit. I’m just trying to poke the holes in your reasoning, same as you think your doing with me (even though you’ve given plenty of non answers and just accused me of trolling instead).

“You pointed out that I was using a logical fallacy to counter a logical fallacy and now I’m upset”

And I’ve countered every point, and await your response.

Oh look, you ignore the whole purpose I said that. Again. :roll_eyes:

Maybe if I try 1 more time you’ll understand. Me saying I have 2700 IO was not to use it as an authority on why M+ needs to change. It was to counter the inevitable troll responses like “You just want to change the system because your bad and its too hard for you” troll responses.

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I’ve explained very thoroughly why it matters. You seem to just not be able to comprehend it. Just because something already happens doesn’t mean it is good to make it happen more. We already have people shoplifting, let’s just get rid of all security because it doesn’t stop all of it. Same basic principal here. People already fail upwards now, but doesn’t mean they should enable it from happening more.

They fail upwards from where they start to where gear progression ends, hence +10. It does happen higher up where we see plenty of people in 2700-2800 IO not understand basic things. It wastes everyones time.

LOL what? When you are doing challenging content, what should happen if you fail? I’m not the one calling them a “noob”. You are. Failing is a part of progression at all levels. The only one making it derogatory here is you.

Literally not it and it’s becoming painfully clear that you like to insert strawmans every chance you get.

How am I the one who is being short sighted when I’m looking out for what’s best longevity wise? I literally explained it. It’s not my problem if you can’t comprehend it.

Removing key depletions is bad. These all or nothing arguments are not good for the content. Like I said, I’ve offered a long detailed thread about changes, but threads like these stick around longer because they generate more drama. Not because the idea is good.

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The problem is that it “happening more” is just your assumption on what would happen. I’m not interested in what if’s. I just want to be able to start my own group and not be worried that something is going to go wrong and someone is going to leave and deplete my key the entire time I’m running the dungeon. Theres no way to prevent my time from being wasted, because as you said people can still leave/get kicked, but at least now as the key holder I don’t have to worry about needing a 10 for the vault for the week, listing the key as “completion for vault, probably won’t time”, and having someone leave because an int gets missed, 1 wipe occurs, someone with 3k IO doesn’t actually understand how the dungeon works despite their score, the healer is doing less dps than the tank (all of which are reasons I have personally had my “weekly no leaver” 10 keys get depleted).

If a key fails it wastes everyone’s time regardless. Its just that in its current state it wastes the time of the key holder at least twice over, because if the group disbands they have to build the 9 back up before they can even attempt the 10 again. If the vault didn’t work the way it currently does, and only gave you credit for timed dungeon, I’d see your point, but as it stands thats not how the vault works. I don’t care if someone in my group is bad when I post my “weekly no leaver key”, I care if theres some guy I invite who ignores that its a weekly no leaver key and leaves, leaving me with a 9 and screwing me over.

If you fail you shouldn’t get pushed into a higher key level. It doesn’t mean you need to go back and do a key level you’ve already done just to have another chance at running a 10. Imagine if raiding was like this, “Sorry, you’ve wiped on Broodtwister too many times. Now you need to go back and kill the prior bosses again to earn the right to challenge Broodtwister some more.”

What else would this possibly mean then?

Except it literally would not. Do you not know that if you don’t time whatever the highest key level you completed for the week that your vault rewards you with 1 key lower?
Which would also invalidate the following point

As someone who doesn’t care about score pushing, I don’t care if score becomes inflated. You can also buy score with real money because the WoW token and MDI players exist.

I will say that this is something I could actually get behind. I’m simply fine with keys not depleting if you fail to time/disband more.

Again, Blizzard changes their stance all the time. They said they didn’t want to make legendaries moggable because they didn’t want everyone running around with Thunderfury or Warglaives. They said they regret giving players weapons that were super important to lore when they mentioned not bringing back the Corrupted Ashbringer, then in Legion every paladin had an Ashbringer. Blizzard being against something could change at any point. Also I disagree with this stance anyway. People will target farm a key if they want to target farm it regardless of if they have that dungeon for their key or not. Having keystones only work for 1 dungeon doesn’t prevent this, it just adds a little friction to doing it.

They just nerfed it to give an extra 90 seconds to dungeons, essentially giving you 6 free deaths in comparison to before the changes.

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It’s not just a “what if”. It is actuality. If keys don’t deplete, people will get kicked on top of people leaving. You essentially opened another door to make pugging M+ more toxic that doesn’t exist currently.

M+ isn’t raiding. Raiding is a weekly lock out. M+ is infinitely farm able. Which is why the end-of-dungeon drops are lower and has consequences for not timing it such as key depletion. I’ve presented my reasoning for why removing depletion is bad and if you still fail to see it then that’s not my problem. You are not going to change my mind here.

I backed up my argument and now even presented you with alternatives. All you have done was try to insert strawmans, put words in my mouth, and fail to articulate why removing depletions would be a net-positive for M+. This is further evidenced by the fact that all you can do is try and point out negatives of the alternatives provided. You tell others that they are disingenuous, but you are in fact the one who argues in bad faith.

You engaged with me. Don’t forget that.

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You can join other people’s groups.

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Again, you literally cannot know that until Blizzard actually tests it out.

I, and many players I run with for 10s and 11s, are 630+ ilvl. We are not running the dungeon for gear. We are running the dungeon for vaults, which is a weekly reward. Again, you’d have a point if 10s were dropping myth track gear, but they aren’t so comparing a 10 to raiding in this case is 100% a valid comparison.

The drops aren’t lower if you don’t time it, you still get 2 items. Only the crests are lower, which is also fine. I’m not fine with the key lowering back down to a 9 from the 10.

The problem is you state your opinions and claim them as facts, and don’t even realize thats what you are doing. Having an opinion is okay, we all have them. Our opinions are different on this subject, I’ve pointed out why your logic is flawed, and you disagree.

Except your backups have flawed logic, because you state your opinions as fact. You claim its a fact that if keys no longer deplete that people will have forever 10s, when thats literally not how the key you get from the vault works.

I feel like I’ve articulated my opinions very well. The problem is you take your opinions as objective facts when they are not, so you just don’t accept that someone disagrees with your opinion, because again, in your mind they aren’t opinions.

Yes. I told the person using Tournament Realms, that the vast majority of the general population never uses or looks at, as an example means he is either being ignorant or disingenuous and I stand by that opinion.

I didn’t forget that.

You seem to have gotten very upset that I called out your original logical fallacy and have launched into a tirade at me in a desperate attempt at proving me wrong by stating your own opinions as objective facts.

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Which is obviously what I already do, making my key useless because 99% of the keys I do aren’t my own, for reasons I’ve gone into ad nauseum.

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Maybe if they gave tanks a much needed buff to put their self heals / damage reduction % abilities on par with dps. People arent playing tanks because its not fun, so after they get their 10 a week they just stop.

Theres about 1 tank for every 15 to 20 dps players so if you want tanks, you’ll have to start playing them, or paying them.

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So your key having a greater chance of success makes it useless?

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We do know because that’s how the player base is and has been. The only reason people don’t get kicked out of M+ is because it is an automatic dead run for push keys and for non-push keys finishing the run still grants the kicked player a chance for loot.

What happens in raids if someone performs poorly? They get kicked.
What happens in M0 if someone performs poorly? They get kicked.
What happens in LFD if someone performs poorly? They get kicked.

Don’t sit there and try to pretend like if keys didn’t deplete that they wouldn’t get kicked early in the run for the group leader to re-fill and start over.

Yes a weekly reward because it is infinitely farmable. I don’t see how you think what you said is a counter argument. It’s not.

I didn’t say they drop less loot. See how you can’t comprehend simple things or try and twist them into things that were never said?

Except it is a literal fact that people will get kicked if keys don’t deplete. This isn’t some hypothetical, this is reality.

You have not articulated anything well.