Right, this doesn’t change much, but because the leader loses NOTHING (since keys do not go down) it makes everyone else more at risk.
I’ve already explained this to you multiple times and what you are trying to argue isn’t it. I suggest you scroll up and actually read it if you are interested. Otherwise I have no interest into talking in circles with you continuing to insert strawmans or words in my mouth. You are trying goad me. It’s clear that you are just trolling at this point with how many times you bring up things that were never said.
This does not guarantee the failure rate increases. You act as if someone depletes their 10 key they’ll never have it again. They’re just going to keep doing their 10s until it works, or just be done with the system entirely like I was in DF when I had Keystone Hero and couldn’t pug into a 20 of the 2 easiest dungeons of the season for my vault reward. I attempted to que into groups for 16 hours, and when I realized it had been 16 hours without an invite (again I had the score and had timed the dungeons at +20 for both Fort and Tyr weeks) I began to contemplate my life choices and decided to just log off for a few months instead of continuing to engage in such a horrible system.
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No it doesn’t. Once a key has gotten to the point of being untimeable its untimeable. Whether the group disbands or the leader kicks people at that point makes no difference. If its a completion only group then the leader wouldn’t kick people unless they thought the key was uncompletable. If the leader is correct then kicking people doesn’t hurt anyone, because the key was uncompleteable. If its a group trying to time the key then there is also no difference between kicking or disbanding once the key reaches the point of being untimeable. It literally just makes it so key holders aren’t as punished for attempting to try pugging their own key.
In fact one of the reasons threads like these start is because people ask for advice on how to get into groups and the number 1 answer given is “make your own”. So let people follow that advice and make their own groups, just don’t metaphorically kick them while they’re down by also depleting their key after they’ve had their time wasted.
I mean, come on.
If they bought a carry, they won’t have it again for this week.
Unless they buy another carry. So you’d be okay with it as long as they’re having to spend lots of gold? Also if they didn’t time any of the 10s they run that week their key would lower to a 9 when they receive their new one from the vault at the start of the next week.
Also didn’t you also say earlier that just because you can do a 16 doesn’t mean your ready for a 17? This also applies to a 9 going into a 10, even more so honestly.
Whether they got carried through or earned their 9 completion we can’t know. All I can say is that by completing the 9 they’ve earned the right to try a 10, and thats literally how the system is designed.
I just find the design of depletion to be a bad design and would like it gone. Same with keystones in general.
Which is basically just how Delves currently work. I just don’t want M+ to be soloable content like Delves are.
Removing key depletion encourages even the key holder to be leavers. If you want to deter leavers, I think implementing something to punish leavers will be more helpful in that aspect.
Your evidence of this?
That’s your choice.
Yes, I understand why.
People don’t like pressure or responsibility and then blizzard made it tougher to tank.
Let me guess, they made the game toxic because they don’t want to invite people who are under-geared, low IO and/or an off meta spec? None of that is toxic, metas are the norm and pretending they’re not is lying to yourself… every game has them.
That’s their choice but If you aren’t willing to play the role, you need to accept that you need to be patient and any complaints about the tank or healer should be ignored and treated like a toddler who got something taken from them.
Stop being a cry-baby. Simple logic. I’m not acting like everyone is bad, I’m stating that DPS are a bunch of cry-babies who feel entitled to something they’ve not earned. Also calling me a jerk because I gave you the only solutions you are going to get. 
is pretty weird.
And how do they punish these players exactly? Players have brought this up before, and its always met with “People just don’t want to have their time wasted in a key, so they leave. Don’t punish people for not wanting to have their time wasted and forcing them to stay in terrible groups”. I also fail to see how going from 4/5 of the group members not caring about the key depleting and choosing to leave anyway to 5/5 group members doing it is such a huge deal. The only person who gets screwed by key leavers in the current system is the person who’s key it is.
I have a proposition thats more fair to all of you who believe depletion should remain. If you join a group that disbands or fails to time the key every group member has their key lowered to the same level as the key holder. Fair is fair after all.
Maybe preventing the player that leaves from participating in another group immediately for X amount of time? This has already been implemented in the LFR.
We can also maybe get something like a “concede” decision among the 5 players and if the majority votes for it (3/5), then the key would not be depleted and the group will disband.
Removing key depletion will not remove the amount of leavers, it will increase it instead. It doesn’t make sense to implement something if it doesn’t remove the root problem at all and it’s making the problem worse.
This doesn’t stop people from doing it. They weigh “wasting more time in this key vs having to afk to wait out the debuff” and at least with the debuff they can afk until its gone. Or instead of leaving people would just afk the key until the leader disbands or kicks them.
This sounds fine at first, but what if its 3 to 2 in favor of keeping the key going and the other 2 players don’t care? Whats stopping them from saying “okay well I’m gonna afk until you disband or kick me so I don’t get deserter then”?
From 4 to 5. Its not the big deal you make it out to be.
The problem doesn’t get worse. If all you change is that more key leaders will be the ones disbanding/ruining their own key now because it can’t deplete, nothing actually really changes. What happens in a group that goes into a key expecting to time it but early on realize timing it isn’t going to happen? People leave. There is virtually no difference in a key being bricked because someone leaves or the leader kicks them. The key is over either way. The only difference is in the new system at least the person who actually took the initiative to leave his group isn’t screwed over twice (time wasted AND key depleted).
Having been on these forums and in M+ threads for awhile the majority of what I see in response to “How do I get into more content in this game when I spend hours applying to groups but can’t get invited?” is “Just start your own group”. Funny how these people who tell others to just make their own group are also in favor of a system that actively screws people over for trying to do that. And then the typical response is “your just lazy and don’t wanna put the work in to make your own group/push your own key” when in reality people just don’t want to put up their own key, take the time to make the group and lead the dungeon, and be the only person in the group who has their keystone screwed over if something goes wrong.
Yes it doesn’t stop people from doing it, but it discourages them to do it.
Fair point, perhaps game can track if any player is AFK for X amount of time and then having the option to disband and not deplete the key if that’s the case? And then punishing only those players with the leaver debuff mentioned previously.
I see your point but all I’m saying is that if removing key depletion does not solve the leavers problem ultimately, why implement it in the first place? Shouldn’t better alternatives be considered?
We’ve seen this in action enough to know it doesn’t solve the issue though. Discouraging behavior doesn’t work as effectively as preventing it to begin with.
So now they “disconnect” instead, and people argue that you can’t punish someone if they are having internet issues that day because it would be unfair.
If there is a better one, sure. Its the best I’ve been able to come up with so far because it actually means that more people will be willing to pug their own key if they know that a random other player can’t deplete it.
Personally I want it to work like Delves minus the solo aspect. Go to a dungeon of your choice, click the orb and select M+ level (all 5 group members need to have that level unlocked), start dungeon. No more keystones taking up a bag slot, no more depletion, just running dungeons and not worrying nearly as much about some tool leaving your “weekly no leaver” because someone missed 1 kick, 1 wipe happened, the healer is doing less dps than the tank (all reasons I’ve heard from people who leave my “no leaver” keys) because at least now you can just try again instead of having to build your 9 key back up to a 10 and risk it turning into an 8 at the same time.
Imagine this from the PoV of people who don’t enjoy M+ in the first place but want to mythic raid. You need to do M+ for vault slots to get gear to push bosses. You can’t get into other groups in a reasonable time frame because you are a DPS, so you start your own key (you have a 10 because you timed a 10 last week). You post in the title “Weekly completion for vault, no leaver” and you invite people into your group (they all have decent or high IO). You get up to the first boss, pull it, and kill it. One of the dps you invited types “I’m not finishing a key with someone below the tank in damage” and leaves. Confused, you check your damage meter. You notice he was 3rd in dps (the bottom), and that the only one doing less dps than the tank is the healer. Now you have a 9 key. A key that you don’t even want to do because all you wanted is to do a 10 for the week and be done because you loathe M+ because of scenarios that just happened.
Make tanking and healing fun again. That’s the actual solution.
If you only solicit feedback from MDI world champions and race to world first contenders, this is the kind of game you get. People don’t play tanks and healers in general to get high on the meters or climb leaderboard. People play tanks because they want to feel solid. People play healers because they wanna feel helpful challenge people where they live.
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I don’t want it and don’t speak for me.
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Tanks were in short supply even before the changes.
Also, I’m sure they aren’t fun for you and probably some others as well… but I still enjoy playing healer, them not being face roll easy to play anymore isn’t a bad thing to me… people don’t want to play those roles because they’re afraid of having responsibility and DPS is their way out. It’s nothing to do with the nerfs… the only solution that is going to actually fix this shortage, is people chalking it up and playing the roles themselves instead of crying on the forum about it.
Damn man. It’s two clicks away.
I’m speaking from experience. Not supposition.
They are making tanking and healing more like dps, thinking that dps will swap if they can make it close enough. But dps players will never swap, because picking up more responsibility blows. And the changes are alienating the players who actually like to tank and heal.
This is a problem that blizzard created.
You don’t want tanks or healers to have anything challenging. Your ideal gameplay is tanks and healers cast like 10 abilities per minute…
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I am a Holy priest: After doing many +2 (meaning the old +14) I don’t even want to go higher even if i did a +4 once.
Healing is not fun AT ALL for me and now each time i want to get into a dungeon, i have a feeling of repulsion preventing me to apply to anything related to the MM+.
Make healing fun again and then i will come back to do dungeons.