The problem is:
Who would queue for team matches? Like, my mage is rank 10. Elemental spec. Good gear, 100% mount. If my options are to face a well-prepared team and a have a fun, fair, 25-minutes match and queue up with a bunch of randos to face another team of randos I would obviously choose the latter. Not because it is more fun - it very much isn’t, and as I said before watching people who have no idea of what to do in a battleground and don’t want to learn flail around is extremely irritating - but because it would award vastly superior amounts of honor per hour because I am confident in my character’s ability to win a 2v2/1v1 situation and get reasonably good honor that way.
Premade vs Premade exclusively would award dismal, unviable honor because the only way to get more honor than pugs would be winning over 50% of your matches.
You will then say “then what’s the problem? If your premade is excellent you will win a lot of matches!” but that isn’t true. Because below-average premades will be getting less honor than pugs they would all move to the pug queue, which would make the premade queue harder and harder to succeed on until it dies completely (because it won’t be more honor per hour than pugs for even the best teams in the world). Separating the queues will kill the best way to play battlegrounds, and the ONLY way to rank up would be by doing a hellish grind along with people who, again, can’t even attack LM with the purpose of wiping, rezzing at BS and taking Mines for free.
1 Like
You would have to perform well in either/both variants to succeed, that’s true; because both variants would be inherently fair.
You are correct.
You would have to be good at the game to make rank.
Read until the end. I explained why the system collapses.
What you’re doing is called the “slippery slope fallacy.”
You’re assuming a snowball effect that cannot be proven because it has not been tried.
No. I am applying super basic game theory. People chase incentives, and this kind of thing happens all the time in the world of economics. It is why car insurance works the way it does.
I’m not assuming anything, this is what will happen. If something happens ten million times it will happen ten million and one times.
Here’s an interesting perspective:
If it has a beneficial effect on the quality of the gameplay, why do we care?
If premade players are engaging in pugs, the average quality of player in a pug game is likely to increase as a result, ruling out some of the inherent frustration you have with them anyway.
You can’t make pvp fair in a system that is inherently unfair. The honor system is designed to reward players for farming other players. For the honor system to work someone needs to be farmed and someone needs to do the farming. Nobody enjoys being on the receiving end, it sucks. But the system doesn’t reward skill, no matter how much you want it to. It rewards time, effort, and organization. If you’re not willing to be in organized groups you won’t succeed, end of story. Blame the honor system, not premades.
The honor system was not designed that way, it’s simply what players have turned it into as a direct result of premades facing pugs in bgs.
In the case of pre v pre and pug v pug, the system absolutely rewards skill. Far better than the current meta of rewarding hph rather than your ability to win a fair contest.
You are entitled to your opinion.
Edit: That being said, a lot of it IS opinion. Calling premades a bug to be fixed (or more specifically, premades playing against pugs) is a load of trash in my opinion.
Which I am also entitled to.
1 Like
Eeeh, the vast majority of pug players wouldn’t make it far in any system designed to reward skill.
Let’s say 2000 rating means commander mount.
2500 rating means High Warlord gear.
How far would YOU get?
I’m uncertain where rating entered the conversation.
I just explained that it doesn’t. A great player in the premade vs premade queue would make far less honor than a bad player in a solo queue. So he would move to the solo queue, where he can earn more honor points than the bad player in a solo queue by winning 1v1s and 2v2s.
If you want to separate the queues, give the premade groups 50% bonus honor, or whatever ensures that a trade chat premade earns, on average, the same hph as solo players.
That way the system won’t collapse, and it will reward skill forever.
You have so little faith in your team-mates, man.
If you’re queuing for Pre v Pre, you’re gambling that the team you’ve put together is better than your opponents’ team. You can better control your class comp, you can more effectively strategize towards victory…
Nothing about that is changing.
We’ve had this conversation multiple times.
Think about the other team. Suppose they have a 40% win rate. They will look at their hph meter and will say “this crap is slow af, even pugging is better”.
So the teams I will face will get better and better, until I can’t beat them anymore and I leave the system myself.
And yet a team with a 40% win rate is probably achieving better honor than the poor quality pug player because he’s a detriment to his team in every game he plays.
That doesn’t mean he doesn’t deserve to play the game, he just needs practice and experience and to see what the best players in his games are doing – and over time, he’ll improve, and someday he might make a great PvP player regardless of your own personal considerations of honor efficiency.
He’s going to drop the game entirely, or at least stop PvPing if every game he joins has an invincible team pitted against him.
But they aren’t achieving better honor than what they would achieve as good players in the pug queue. So they’ll just leave.
Yeah, the bad pug player in this situation is doing alright. The premade system still collapsed.
You don’t know that. lol
shrug
Pugs are open far wider to the forces of inconsistency as a result of a randomized team. If you’re truly good at the game and you have friends and team-mates who are good at the game, you’re going to be able to hold your own as a premade.
If your premade thrives solely off stomping pugs, who are ill equipped to play against you as a result of their team composition, then yes. You’ll all do better queuing solo, which is perhaps why you neglected to take queues against enemy premades in p3.
That’s exactly what it was designed for. The honor system predates BG’s. It was made for world pvp.
Define skill in classic. Because the skills required to be “good” at classic are not the same as they are in later expacs. The only things that matter in classic are preperation and organization, which take time and effort.
In MoP one of my friends came back after not playing since TBC. He cleared Naxx in vanilla. This guy couldn’t handle mechanics in normal HoF. I’m not even talking about heroic, normal. He was kicked after about 2 weeks and unsubbed.
You don’t need to be a good player to be “good” at classic. Just make friends and farm consumables.
By the way, I have read the thread.
This is a perfect example. A likely problem is brought up, you demonstrate you really don’t care at all what happens to anyone else (believe in your teammates! You don’t know that, inevitable shrug)
And then when that problem is brought up again later you say “except we talked about this, it’s not an issue” despite your arguments being utterly unconvincing.
Just because you don’t care about an issue doesn’t mean it’s refuted.
Just because you think a certain way about a problem doesn’t mean everyone or anyone else is convinced.
I’m betting by the time I’m done typing this, you’ll be claiming he’s just afraid to have premades fight premades again, which is the other constant, ad-hominem go to you frequent.