Gearing up in Vanilla takes too long for people to just steam roll the tight numbers check that is Naxx.
This isn't going to be like TBC Illidan where a raid kills him in blues because they can out-skill the mechanics.
05/21/2018 01:05 PMPosted by Grogzo265432I don't think it is as difficult as you are making it out to be. We have the benefit of hindsight and can carefully craft out what we need to do if we wanted to beat Naxx as quickly as possible. For example, going into MC every time the mobs reset to get reputation. Crafting fire resist and nature resist gear and eventually frost resist gear as early as possible. Having optimal specs from the get go.
And since they are probably launching with 1.12 talents and abilities, it won't be so hard.
No one is saying it's especially difficult to get the gear you need, however, it IS time-consuming because of the weekly lock-outs. Even if your guild can somehow down the first 12 bosses in Naxx from the beginning you're still looking at, on average drop ratios, 4 weeks minimum before you get 8 warrior tanks with 4 pc t3 (2 drops per boss, 12 bosses, 1/3 tokens are usable by warrior is 8/week).
Without gating the likelihood of that is near 0, tanks in blues aren't getting past Patchwerk, especially with DPS and healers in blues as well. Then there's the question of actually crafting the tier gear between getting enough scrap drops and the various crafting mats the gear requires.
MC rep isn't required, you can get enough just from killing all the bosses to get the water. Yes, fire and particularly nature resist will be acquired ahead of time. You can't really pre-acquire the shadow and frost gear because greens/blues won't cut it in Naxx. There really is no way to get around needing AQ 40 and Naxx gear to beat Naxx and at the start you won't be getting much, if any, of it.
(And that's without even getting into the question of accessing Naxx to begin with. If everyone is only barely eligible the guild cost would be 2400g before you even talk about the cost of buying the items that are also required)
05/21/2018 01:31 PMPosted by Ellilaine05/21/2018 01:05 PMPosted by Grogzo265432I don't think it is as difficult as you are making it out to be. We have the benefit of hindsight and can carefully craft out what we need to do if we wanted to beat Naxx as quickly as possible. For example, going into MC every time the mobs reset to get reputation. Crafting fire resist and nature resist gear and eventually frost resist gear as early as possible. Having optimal specs from the get go.
And since they are probably launching with 1.12 talents and abilities, it won't be so hard.
No one is saying it's especially difficult to get the gear you need, however, it IS time-consuming because of the weekly lock-outs. Even if your guild can somehow down the first 12 bosses in Naxx from the beginning you're still looking at, on average drop ratios, 4 weeks minimum before you get 8 warrior tanks with 4 pc t3 (2 drops per boss, 12 bosses, 1/3 tokens are usable by warrior is 8/week).
Without gating the likelihood of that is near 0, tanks in blues aren't getting past Patchwerk, especially with DPS and healers in blues as well. Then there's the question of actually crafting the tier gear between getting enough scrap drops and the various crafting mats the gear requires.
MC rep isn't required, you can get enough just from killing all the bosses to get the water. Yes, fire and particularly nature resist will be acquired ahead of time. You can't really pre-acquire the shadow and frost gear because greens/blues won't cut it in Naxx. There really is no way to get around needing AQ 40 and Naxx gear to beat Naxx and at the start you won't be getting much, if any, of it.
(And that's without even getting into the question of accessing Naxx to begin with. If everyone is only barely eligible the guild cost would be 2400g before you even talk about the cost of buying the items that are also required)
And you run multiple raids to do it all. It doesn't take 40 people to beat Molten Core if you are also getting gear from ZG and AQ20 and Dire Maul. A guild of 80 die hard people can get fully geared out in Blues, then do ZG and AQ20 in a night followed by most of Molten Core. Then, they can combine into two raids to work on BWL to get at least razorgore down and then do Onyxia. Spend a few days massively farming, then work on AQ40 for a night. When you get enough people revered with Argent Dawn, start sending runs into Naxx to do as much of Spider Wing as you can do and get trash drops.
This is all doable in the first month.
You are completely underestimating the effort that certain groups of people will go through to get through Naxx as quickly as possible. Also, this is only true if they just release all this content on the first day. If they do spread it out, Naxx will be done the evening it comes out because it isn't that hard in hindsight and with the indepth videos explaining how to do each fight.
Ok assuming a 50 person raid team.
Takes 3 weeks to hit 60 and spam dungeons for BiS
Week 4: 2 clears of MC(2 25m teams), 2 clears of Ony(2 25m teams), ZG cleared, AQ20 cleared, Razorgore dead, if Vael is dead so are next 4 bosses. Prophet dead, not sure how far AQ40 progression will go. Naxx trash is farmed so every rogue, fury warrior and prot warrior will have a naxx quality epic weapon. Might even be able to kill 1 or 2 Naxx bosses.
Weeks 5-8: repeat farming raids.
By this point BWL is on farm(except maybe nef due to ony cloaks), AQ40 should be near farm if not already on farm, and you have prob got a decent number of naxx bosses on farm.
Throughout this you prob have your frost res sets and your nature res sets. No need for FR except maybe for some tanks.
Yes gearing up is a a process but when you can farm nearly 6 raids every week it becomes less of an issue.
Takes 3 weeks to hit 60 and spam dungeons for BiS
Week 4: 2 clears of MC(2 25m teams), 2 clears of Ony(2 25m teams), ZG cleared, AQ20 cleared, Razorgore dead, if Vael is dead so are next 4 bosses. Prophet dead, not sure how far AQ40 progression will go. Naxx trash is farmed so every rogue, fury warrior and prot warrior will have a naxx quality epic weapon. Might even be able to kill 1 or 2 Naxx bosses.
Weeks 5-8: repeat farming raids.
By this point BWL is on farm(except maybe nef due to ony cloaks), AQ40 should be near farm if not already on farm, and you have prob got a decent number of naxx bosses on farm.
Throughout this you prob have your frost res sets and your nature res sets. No need for FR except maybe for some tanks.
Yes gearing up is a a process but when you can farm nearly 6 raids every week it becomes less of an issue.
05/20/2018 10:58 PMPosted by AraskaThere's this myth floating around that vanilla's content was "easy", spewed by people who have no idea. They're in for a surprise.
If you played Everquest, vanilla was a walk in the park.
05/21/2018 01:05 PMPosted by Grogzo265432I don't think it is as difficult as you are making it out to be. We have the benefit of hindsight and can carefully craft out what we need to do if we wanted to beat Naxx as quickly as possible. For example, going into MC every time the mobs reset to get reputation. Crafting fire resist and nature resist gear and eventually frost resist gear as early as possible. Having optimal specs from the get go.
And since they are probably launching with 1.12 talents and abilities, it won't be so hard.
Who's to say they will not re-tune the bosses and nerf threat generation on shield slam to bring things back into line?
They did promise an authentic experience. I could care less about what talents and ability tuning they go with so long as its part of an authentic vanilla patch leaving no room for interpretation on the class tuning side. Also that the boss kill time duration is on average the same as it was in original Vanilla so that raid encounter strategies are authentic vanilla and not the abomination that is the private server content.
Please don't interpret this as me bashing the private realms; they did a good job with the limited resources they have and provided a place for people to play; that's awesome!
What's not awesome is their lack of authentic vanilla raid encounters, they are an empty shell of their original glory.
So a few more things:
Most every class got buffed in their major tuning patch, which if the game is released at 1.12 everything else will be pre-nerfed in a way already. (Edit: meaning the bosses in MC BWL etc will be pre-nerfed)
If you look at the amount of pulls world-first guilds got in on these bosses in the first three weeks, it’s pretty clear they were playing at least 16+ hours a day. They literally raid as much in 3 weeks as a 10-15 hour a week guild does in 3 months.
Argent Dawn rep is a factor, but chances are they can steamroll Strat and Scholo so freaking fast it won’t matter. Remember, world-first players can shut down a Maw 22 in 7 and a half minutes. And any 20+ key is far beyond anything in 5-15 man vanilla.
There is one thing no one has mentioned though. If the War Effort has to be completed first to open thw gates of AQ, that could hold things up.
Also the world buffs and buff stacking were real. I think one of them was 15% all stats (can you imagine if that were available now?) and a rogue could use a mongoose flask, a major agility, an agility, a lesser agility, rumsey’s, and a couole more
Most every class got buffed in their major tuning patch, which if the game is released at 1.12 everything else will be pre-nerfed in a way already. (Edit: meaning the bosses in MC BWL etc will be pre-nerfed)
If you look at the amount of pulls world-first guilds got in on these bosses in the first three weeks, it’s pretty clear they were playing at least 16+ hours a day. They literally raid as much in 3 weeks as a 10-15 hour a week guild does in 3 months.
Argent Dawn rep is a factor, but chances are they can steamroll Strat and Scholo so freaking fast it won’t matter. Remember, world-first players can shut down a Maw 22 in 7 and a half minutes. And any 20+ key is far beyond anything in 5-15 man vanilla.
There is one thing no one has mentioned though. If the War Effort has to be completed first to open thw gates of AQ, that could hold things up.
Also the world buffs and buff stacking were real. I think one of them was 15% all stats (can you imagine if that were available now?) and a rogue could use a mongoose flask, a major agility, an agility, a lesser agility, rumsey’s, and a couole more
05/21/2018 03:44 PMPosted by TwilightcultSo a few more things:
Most every class got buffed in their major tuning patch, which if the game is released at 1.12 everything else will be pre-nerfed in a way already.
Do you mean post nerf? Because that's what happens when you buff classes or nerf raids.
05/21/2018 03:44 PMPosted by TwilightcultIf you look at the amount of pulls world-first guilds got in on these bosses in the first three weeks, it’s pretty clear they were playing at least 16+ hours a day. They literally raid as much in 3 weeks as a 10-15 hour a week guild does in 3 months.
Fairly normal for hardcore players. Why would they come back to Vanilla again? The world firsts already took place 12 to 13 years ago.
05/21/2018 03:44 PMPosted by TwilightcultArgent Dawn rep is a factor, but chances are they can steamroll Strat and Scholo so freaking fast it won’t matter. Remember, world-first players can shut down a Maw 22 in 7 and a half minutes. And any 20+ key is far beyond anything in 5-15 man vanilla.
True, but the Naxxramas world event does not take place until content patch 1.11, and if blizzard gives us a real authentic experience then the world events are part of that. In this world event it changes the eastern plague lands and adds the argent dawn rewards and all that stuff to the EPL lights hope chapel.
05/21/2018 03:44 PMPosted by TwilightcultThere is one thing no one has mentioned though. If the War Effort has to be completed first to open thw gates of AQ, that could hold things up.
This is the first world event, and also super important in maintaining an authentic experience.
The original difficulty is all that i care about. The real issue is that most people don't know what the original difficulty actually was.
That's why I don't want an open beta and want Blizzard to do all the number crunching in a vacuum.
That's why I don't want an open beta and want Blizzard to do all the number crunching in a vacuum.
05/21/2018 05:40 PMPosted by XanthakThe original difficulty is all that i care about. The real issue is that most people don't know what the original difficulty actually was.
That's why I don't want an open beta and want Blizzard to do all the number crunching in a vacuum.
I agree, no open beta.
05/21/2018 03:18 PMPosted by StarmanIf you played Everquest, vanilla was a walk in the park.
I played darksouls 1-2-3 and blood bourn
How do they compare ( hardest games i've played)
Also, did classic wow have any world bosses?
05/21/2018 10:53 AMPosted by Grogzo265432A lot of people in here are drastically overthinking how hard a lot of vanilla was.
Only gear check bosses matter for a race to Naxx. Vael, Patchwerk, Nefarian. Some heavy raid stacking might help you on them though to get them early. Other than them, you can farm a lot of gear in a few weeks from all the other bosses available to you and clear Naxx pretty quickly assuming everyone knows the correct strategies.
I would say definitely less than two months without gating. With gating, like everyone else said, it would be done on the first evening it is released.
A few weeks?
Even when we had MC on farm some members would go a few weeks without getting a single item out of it because no priest gear dropped that night or the wrong items dropped.
Either you weren't there, or you're forgetting how long it takes to gear up.
Even before you step into MC, think about the countless runs of STRAT and SCHOLO and UBRS that were required to get ready for that?
05/21/2018 11:11 AMPosted by Grogzo265432
Yes? Most of MC is easy. Dire Maul is easy. Razorgore is doable in BIS dungeon Blues. The first half of AQ40 is not hard. ZG wasn't hard. AQ20 wasn't hard. A lot of the first bosses in Naxx aren't hard, also Naxx trash drops epics.
You do remember that most bosses in MC dropped two or three items each, right? That means that on an average weekly run you're getting .5 to .75 items for each person in the group -- out of how many wear slots?
How is even the gear to take down Vael going to be achievable in a few weeks?
Weird, I remember raiding BWL for a long time trying to get certain items to drop. In that time some players left the guild for other guilds, another setback.
It's almost as if many people here think when they kill a boss they get to pick which 3-4 items drop to spread across their entire 40man roster....... what happens when stuff you don't need drops???.....for weeks on end......
It's almost as if many people here think when they kill a boss they get to pick which 3-4 items drop to spread across their entire 40man roster....... what happens when stuff you don't need drops???.....for weeks on end......
05/22/2018 02:02 AMPosted by Calciumplus05/21/2018 11:11 AMPosted by Grogzo265432
Yes? Most of MC is easy. Dire Maul is easy. Razorgore is doable in BIS dungeon Blues. The first half of AQ40 is not hard. ZG wasn't hard. AQ20 wasn't hard. A lot of the first bosses in Naxx aren't hard, also Naxx trash drops epics.
You do remember that most bosses in MC dropped two or three items each, right? That means that on an average weekly run you're getting .5 to .75 items for each person in the group -- out of how many wear slots?
How is even the gear to take down Vael going to be achievable in a few weeks?
Exactly.
I raided 4hrs a night 5-6 times a week for over 4 or 5 months during vanilla. Even at that rate you are looking to upgrade many pieces of gear, first it has to drop, then you have to get it through whichever system your guild uses. Not easy.
05/22/2018 04:45 AMPosted by Bigsly1DD123
Exactly.
I raided 4hrs a night 5-6 times a week for over 4 or 5 months during vanilla. Even at that rate you are looking to upgrade many pieces of gear, first it has to drop, then you have to get it through whichever system your guild uses. Not easy.
And then there's the question of all the rubbish items that no one wants like Thunderstrike or the mana quickening gem in BWL that was only good for making water quickly.
well lets see …
Assuming level 1-60 took you+39 friends only 7 days
of hard playing/speed looting/vendoring
Assuming you guys had SUPER luck farming dungeons
scholomance/stratholm/ubrs/lbrs and you GOT your drops
within the first 5 runs each
(*avg run was 45 min for a geared knowledgeable group)
and you rotated the SAME Healers/Tanks for 40 people
and didn't send 25 raiders to pug other tanks/healers
THEN you all farmed 1-shot Molten core (screw fire resist)
made a few lucky drops (avg. 16-20 loot items without repeats
for 40 people) spent 4 weeks min to get 80 items for 40 people
just to try BWL next (skipping ZG because most of the bosses could
drop BLUES! true story 33% of a blue drop from ZG bosses)
assuming you could Pound Onyxia 1 shot within 30 min with summons,
pull to finnish/loot and then hearth back to begin BWL every week
BWL had 2 drops per boss + shadow cloaks needed to be crafted for
shadow flame or DIE! on last encounter (that's Onxyia scales 4-8 per kill)
so min. another 6 weeks just for scales so your 40 man raid can LIVE
8 boss x2 loots each (hoping NO repeats dropped - because 5 of the bosses
shared 6out of 10 items on their loot tables) you were ready for AQ20
witch we might as well skip, AQ40 time!
if we ignore the REP lock, and the tokens, idols, and other junk you NEEDED
for 40 people, to get the AQ gear and ONLY hope we get lucky on epic boss
drops we can assume you 1 shot the bosses and farm AQ40 for 4 weeks
avg 2 drops per boss = 16 items per week of a full clear for 40 people
(assuming no one has time to fill in holes with more dungeons or running
MC/BWL/Ony every week or grinding that Cenarion REP for the other epics)
4 more weeks of AQ40 = 80 items for 40 people
you can do all of this within 6 mos, but NO one would be geared enough
to survive a single trash pull in Naxx, and also have the Exaulted Rep
with the Argent Dawn, and have the 60gold each+2 epics disenchanted
to hand in for the Atunement, Fully Tier Geared AQ40 exaulted rep raiders
40 man strong, wiped in Naxx, because it was a HUGE step in item level
and damage/healing ....
My vote it no one would clear Nax, until 12 mos into Classic if they poached
the best geared players supported by multiple guilds, offering ML options
to ensure thier server was world first Classic MC/ZG/ONY/BWL/AQ20-40/NAX
Assuming level 1-60 took you+39 friends only 7 days
of hard playing/speed looting/vendoring
Assuming you guys had SUPER luck farming dungeons
scholomance/stratholm/ubrs/lbrs and you GOT your drops
within the first 5 runs each
(*avg run was 45 min for a geared knowledgeable group)
and you rotated the SAME Healers/Tanks for 40 people
and didn't send 25 raiders to pug other tanks/healers
THEN you all farmed 1-shot Molten core (screw fire resist)
made a few lucky drops (avg. 16-20 loot items without repeats
for 40 people) spent 4 weeks min to get 80 items for 40 people
just to try BWL next (skipping ZG because most of the bosses could
drop BLUES! true story 33% of a blue drop from ZG bosses)
assuming you could Pound Onyxia 1 shot within 30 min with summons,
pull to finnish/loot and then hearth back to begin BWL every week
BWL had 2 drops per boss + shadow cloaks needed to be crafted for
shadow flame or DIE! on last encounter (that's Onxyia scales 4-8 per kill)
so min. another 6 weeks just for scales so your 40 man raid can LIVE
8 boss x2 loots each (hoping NO repeats dropped - because 5 of the bosses
shared 6out of 10 items on their loot tables) you were ready for AQ20
witch we might as well skip, AQ40 time!
if we ignore the REP lock, and the tokens, idols, and other junk you NEEDED
for 40 people, to get the AQ gear and ONLY hope we get lucky on epic boss
drops we can assume you 1 shot the bosses and farm AQ40 for 4 weeks
avg 2 drops per boss = 16 items per week of a full clear for 40 people
(assuming no one has time to fill in holes with more dungeons or running
MC/BWL/Ony every week or grinding that Cenarion REP for the other epics)
4 more weeks of AQ40 = 80 items for 40 people
you can do all of this within 6 mos, but NO one would be geared enough
to survive a single trash pull in Naxx, and also have the Exaulted Rep
with the Argent Dawn, and have the 60gold each+2 epics disenchanted
to hand in for the Atunement, Fully Tier Geared AQ40 exaulted rep raiders
40 man strong, wiped in Naxx, because it was a HUGE step in item level
and damage/healing ....
My vote it no one would clear Nax, until 12 mos into Classic if they poached
the best geared players supported by multiple guilds, offering ML options
to ensure thier server was world first Classic MC/ZG/ONY/BWL/AQ20-40/NAX
It just seems to me there is a combination of rose tinted glasses and heavily understimating the amount of effort and logistics mythic race guilds put in these days. Im almost sure they will end up retuning the raiding content and buffing it up.
05/22/2018 08:00 AMPosted by ZenjifalIt just seems to me there is a combination of rose tinted glasses and heavily understimating the amount of effort and logistics mythic race guilds put in these days. Im almost sure they will end up retuning the raiding content and buffing it up.
The high end guilds in vanilla put in that effort and logistics and it still took 7 weeks to go from 12/15 Naxx to 13/15. Even allowing for a decrease due to improved knowledge of the fights this time around the simple fact is GEAR DIDN'T FALL FROM THE SKY LIKE RAIN IN VANILLA. It is going to take time to get well enough geared to progress through the most difficult vanilla content.
05/19/2018 03:04 PMPosted by NakadashiThat group of a few thousand players that travels from private server to private server is going to completely wipe the floor with Classic.
To be honest, if Blizzard actually makes it like it was back in the old day, being a “pPlayer” will almost be a detriment. It will be like an LFR player stepping right into mythic, thinking “this !@#$ will be easy, I’ve been raiding for awhile!” With a smug grin.
Rag was cleared the second week MC was out by my guild on K3.
We wiped at 3-7% consistently, with only 32 people in the raid the first week.
The majority of people are just not hitting 60 or are about to.
My hunter at 55 took about 4-6 seconds of golem fire on the boss right before emp on k3. I lived. I would have been ROASTED in vanilla.
Pservers are very much like LFR in live, actually probably even easier.
Classic will be a guild breaker to the majority of pserver players, like Naxx is to the pserver crowd. Naxx to them is known as the guild breaker.
That was C’thun and vael’s honor back in the day.