How can we redeem/rebuild the Horde?

I agree with no faction should defeat the other. Anyone thinking differently would be an advocate for the destruction of the game and player base.

In terms of victories, what victories? Alliance specifically beating Horde victories? Or Alliance defeated world threats like Ragnaros, Deathwing, The Jailer etc…?

Because from what I’ve seen Horde players in general want to keep the factions apart as two distinct cultures/ideologies that give the game and world flavour but at the same time want this current conflict over and done and put far, far behind us.

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Yeah, but to me, speaking as an Alliance PVPer who feels as though my playable race was completely humiliated by their faction rivals by fiat, and given very little in the way of payback in that rivalry - I can’t help but to see that desire to say “okay, we’re going to put this rivalry behind us now” as shutting down the stadium because the rival wants a rematch over what they consider to be a fluke - bearing in mind again that these are fiat wins. Your ability or inability to PVP was never stacked against mine - Blizzard just gave you that win - and that feeds the notion that every time I step into a battleground or participate in PVP that whatever I do, no matter how well I play - I’m not good enough because I rolled the wrong race.

That’s what the decade of humiliating content says to me - it’s why I want that to be reversed and balanced. I don’t want to wreck your fun - I want this conflict to be balanced in every way possible. I think we can achieve that further by constructing PVP content around defined friction points and letting the PVErs get their fun through PVE - but you can’t just slam the door in my face after something so visceral and humiliating as Teldrassil.

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There are so many low-hanging pieces of fruit Blizzard can give to the Alliance if we’re talking quick wins that don’t come at significant expense to the Horde. How many ruined nations and abandoned settlements are sitting borderline empty, waiting for reclamation?

e.g. Gilneas - with Sylvanas gone and the Forsaken largely rudderless, Greymane decides to secure Gilneas. He and his worgen bros sail in, hunt down the last of the Sylvanas-loyalist apothecaries, dark rangers and undead soldiers, and secure their homeland.

Easy. A big win worgen players have been waiting a decade for. The Horde loses nothing it has any attachment to, and the primary enemy of the worgen is dealt its final blow.

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I’m going to add as well - these conflicts can be used to further flesh out the Horde - and do more to get us to understand the people on the ground and why they’re doing what they’re doing - to get them to defend characters that the content would get us attached to - even to show examples of Alliance characters acting immorally to demonstrate that the morality game isn’t a one-way street either. This doesn’t have to be, and shouldn’t be, penance content.

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I think the irreconcilable difference here is that what you see as a fair and just balancing is perceived by (many) Horde players as just grinding the Horde completely into the dust and leaving us there permanently.

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I mean, Pellex, that’s what I feel has been done to my playable race. That’s what I read when people say that they want to put away the faction war forever now, without even an attempt at trying to make it up for me. What I’m trying to do is find the way to fix that problem while making it satisfying for Horde players as well.

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Penance is exactly how I see Horde content being though. There’s no feel good wins for Horde if Alliance player sentiments are considered.

Bottom line is. Horde needs to pay.

I’m at the point where I’m perfectly fine with the Alliance dealing with foreign otherworldly threats being the Guardians of Azeroth, fighting Titans, Old Gods, Void Lords, travelling across the universe all the while the Horde take on a domestic threat like a Centaur tribe invading Razor Hill.

I know. That’s why I said it was an irreconcilable difference. Because you’ll accept nothing less than what you feel you need and deserve.

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I’m not sure I understand.

I have consistently argued for an onscreen Ashenvale reconquest, and have consistently said that it should end there for the health of the game. Can you please explain to me how such is grinding the Horde completely into the dust and leaving you there permanently?

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Well, there’s the fact that Teldrassil was your idea of (and I quote) “a big, juicy W.”

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I doubt the Army of the Black Moon was content with just Darkshore and I doubt the replacement of Sylvanas was met with resounding support by the undead soldiers still securing Ashenvale. Another easy way to let Alliance players secure something that matters to them and defeat an enemy that doesn’t drag the Horde player down with it.

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One that as I just explained, no faction should have ever gotten.

Period.

I don’t think that should have happened to me, and I don’t think it should happen to you. Losing the entire country in a patch is terrible and demotivating. I wouldn’t wish it on other people.

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I find the issue is threefold.

  • Firstly the writers need to stop repeating the same story over and over using different actors in the Horde. First it was Grom in war 3 then Garrosh then Sylvanas and every time they have the Alliance forgive and ally up with them to save the world.

  • Second The alliance is only ever reactive to these events and only ever reacts to Hordes aggression and is never pro active. Even things like Stormheim are a reaction to things like the Broken Shore and the story bend over backwards to Justify them. Not to mention the lengths the writers go to to make sure that Anduin is always perceived as on the right side of the conflict. As long as he is associated as leader of the Alliance they will never allow the Alliance to be in the wrong.

  • Thirdly is the massive power imbalance, Between the super hero roster the Alliance has and the complete lack of characters on the Horde side the war has never been a believable conflict. Blizzard either need to kill off some of the Alliance roster or build up the Horde one.

The only way I can see them rectifying this is getting some writers with a passion for the Horde writing some new novels for them and develop new characters without butchering by making them lackeys of alliance characters.

Two get an expansion where the Alliance is the aggressor however without villain batting them. Simply allow old wounds reopen and spark conflict.
Let Genn go after the Forsaken for invading his kingdom.
Let Alleria go after the Blood elves for exiling the High/Void elves.
Let Kultiras go after Rexxar for the death of Daelin.
Let Night elves go after the orcs for Teldrassil.
Let the humans go after the Horde for Stormwind/lordearon.
Let the lightforged/Draenei go after the orcs for war on Draenor.

Simply stop making Alliance characters simply forget or forgive all the terrible things the Horde has done Or remove the ones who will from the Alliance. However let Horde defend it self and fight back honorably for a change. Let it lose some ground but show they are different from when they committed these acts. Show New Characters among the horde that will not go down the same path of their predecessors and condemn the acts of these crimes once committed by the Horde, but will stand for the new horde.

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So in BFA the Horde gets to kill Alliance innocents in a way the Alliance can’t fight back, then at the end of it the Horde get to basically scapegoat Sylvanas and suffer no consequences but you suggest the Alliance aren’t allowed the same?

No.

Sorry folks but all this talk of reperations, justice etc is moot. The fact of the matter is there’s only 4 ways the burning of Teldrassil can ever have a resolution, 2 that put the Alliance and Horde on ‘equal’ footing and 2 that just slap one in the face.

  1. Nothing ever comes out of Teldrassil and the Alliance will always be known as the faction that let an enemy faction genocide one of their races and do nothing to seek proper justice and the Horde will always be known as a monstrous faction of psychopaths and cowards who don’t have empathy for innocents.(neutral)

  2. The Alliance gets to commit a War of the Thorns of their own and like the Horde suffer no consequences, the factions are now at peace not because they both respect each other, but because they are so apathetic about all the needless killing they can’t muster up the effort to fight any more.(Neutral and honestly the only satisfactory resolution I can think of)

  3. The Alliance gets to commit a War of the Thorns, except they are shown in a narrative light to be justified and the Horde agree with peace with the Alliance because the Alliance is so superior both morally and power wise that they basically surrender to them(Alliance favoured)

  4. The Alliance ‘get even’ by giving the Horde a proper fight that they always wanted with their innocents untouched, giving the Horde no reason not to want peace afterwards because the Alliance and the Horde are now on the same moral footing but they didn’t have to have their children burned to death, Aka the garbage you suggested(completely horde favoured like come the f on)

Yep. The last 10 years of utterly annihilating the Horde and having them act as the faction of antagonistic villain plot devices should be reversed and balanced. Without doing that, there will never be anything else but the ridiculous need to have one side commit awful acts and have the other side maintain a moral high ground against that antagonism.

Unfortunately, your racial pride makes you feel that way since your city got burned to the ground and folks died.[1] I don’t begrudge you that feeling. The problem is that while your race lost their home, the Horde as a whole lost, and the Forsaken basically got deleted. So when Horde players see this line of thought, all that’s visible is, “Great, we lost, our faction was decimated, another A-List hero was removed, and the answer is to make us lose more.” We’re constantly the villain in our own story and then in a hero-driven narrative, our hero roster is depleted.

I can see you’re upset about the Night Elf treatment, but in BfA the Horde overall (and the player) was once again forced into being portrayed as the antagonist, initiating multiple conflicts, spending an entire expansion being told we’re (at least supporting) the villain. This is from start to finish - starting off with (what we would consider in our world) two war crimes and ending with another faction leader (who is a significant character and original racial leader) removed from the faction and destined to become a purple-dispenser.

On top of being the villain - again - the Horde then loses both battlegrounds (Darkshore and Arathi Highlands). The Night Elves lose Teldrassil, after managing to slow the Horde attack with city guards, but the Forsaken lose the Undercity (to our own machinations) and then lose the only character that truly defines the race. To add insult to injury, the Forsaken get to add the “Human Potential” aspect via Calia Menethil (who basically has nothing in common with the Forsaken). In essence, we’re told “You’re bad and we’re going to replace your defining elements with an Alliance-based leader so that you can be better.”

It’s pretty crippling, both in terms of faction strength and faction pride. I know you mentioned you want it to be satisfying for Horde players as well, so I hope this doesn’t come across as me stating you’re suggesting crushing the Horde. Honestly though, while you feel demoralized in PVP as a Night Elf, BfA made the Horde player feel pretty demoralized in general.

It’s why, while I don’t want time travel, I’m willing to go along with pretty much anything to help un-write BfA. Let the entire thing be the result of N’Zoth messing with our minds to drive a wedge between the factions that is insurmountable so that we can’t unify against him. When we come back from Shadowlands, N’Zoth is still alive and well. 8.3 didn’t end his threat, in fact he grew stronger from it, and now the Lightforged have come to wage full scale war against his evil (as an added bonus, a long-time “big bad” doesn’t get wiped out in one patch in an expansion).

[1] The phrasing “folks died” isn’t intended to be glib but I didn’t know how else to put it. I’m not trying to deny the severity of it, but like most Azerothian-based population events the number of people involved is somewhere between 1 and 1 billion (?) - a figure that’ll never really be quantified in any meaningful way and that never really relates to anything anyway. We don’t even get population percentages to go by (i.e. 90% of Night Elves died? 10%?). As it’s been said previously, with the way folks are murdered in Azeroth, I’m fairly certain every race should’ve died out long ago - or else every race has a serious collection of baby-making facilities somewhere.

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No consequences?

Explain how Horde suffered “no consequences”.

:pancakes:

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Zarrin, I have at no point argued that I’m the only one with problems, but what I have argued is that the Horde’s problems are of a different character from mine, and they are. I don’t think we disagree that we need a resolution for those problems, and hence I don’t see the point in reminding me what I already know about your situation. You don’t need to convince me, I’m already with you on it.

I will however state that in the same conversation that we talk about fixing your problems, we also give fair provision for mine and vice versa. There’s a tendency on these boards to propose things that leave entire swaths of the playerbase out in the cold - and while I appreciate that’s hard, often impossible to avoid, I do want us to at least be trying.

My difficulty with the solution as presented is two-fold. First
a) The revelation discussed will not undo audience feelings about PVP, and
b) It still doesn’t resolve the perceived-competence-in-the-rivalry issues that I’ve been laying out.

To actually attack b - I think that’s something that has to be resolved through faction conflict. It doesn’t have to be the all-encompassing BFA-like conflict, and it probably shouldn’t be, but it happened “in the arena”, and has to be resolved there as well. For a conversation of one piece of how we might do that - I offer the following: A proposal for Warsong Gulch

Re:[1] Elegy provides a lot of wiggle room in terms of numbers - so I’m not concerned about that. The evacuation was largely successful, the problem was that the War of the Thorns’ visual presentation was concerned with presenting the matter as a tragedy, and presenting the Night Elves as something to be pitied rather than respected and feared. Translate that to me, a PVPer. Do you think I want to be pitied, or feared?

Well, it doesn’t matter what I want if Blizzard is dictating, does it?

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How the heck does the PvE aspect of the game affect your ability to do anything in PvP?

How does the WoT prevent you from killing Horde and winning in, for example, the Alterac Valley battleground?

:pancakes:

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The only real problem with this solution is that it has also been done before, via Daelin equating Thrall’s Horde with the Old Horde of the First and Second Wars, during “Old Hatreds” in Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne.

Like, that’s literally where we are at right now. The Burning of Teldrassil was, quite literally, the destruction of a major capital city coupled with a countless (I will agree with Zarrin that we’re never given exact numbers in these scenarios) number of civilian casualties.

Ergo, it’s comparable to what the Horde did to Stormwind and King Llane to win the First War, or what they did to Grim Batol during the Second War.

And as a result, we’re literally right back where we were prior to Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos:

  • The morally-virtuous Alliance is trying to decide whether or not they should kill off the Horde in revenge/justice
  • The Horde is forced to question its own leadership and grovel for forgiveness
  • We’re left wondering whether the Horde is inherently evil because of its (non-human) races, or if it was simply being corrupted by a handful of bad actors (Blackhand, Gul’dan, Doomhammer, Grom Hellscream vs. Garrosh and Sylvanas)
  • Meanwhile, the Horde’s most moderate leaders (which includes Thrall in both cases) try, with little visible success, to convince the other faction that, “we’re not all like this!”

I’m personally fine with undoing Battle for Azeroth one way or another, by time travel or Old God machinations. But if we’re being truly honest about telling the same story over and over again, well…

Let’s be honest. We’re telling the same story over and over again.

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