I don’t. That’s why I want them to walk it back. They’ve already begun to soften it and it would be the work of moments to re-frame the horror at it as mostly a matter of perspective, the use of the word as in-character and not authoritative, etc. They made Sylvanas lie in her internal monologue, this is less egregious even than that because it doesn’t invalidate the intensity of Tyrande/Nelf emotion, it just points out that “Yeah this was traumatic but you’ll be fine, population-wise.”
Nah. Just someone who is sick to death of the Horde digging itself ever-deeper and doesn’t feel the need to validate the awful storytelling that got us here by needing to engage in even more digging (which the WoW story team has demonstrated they can’t do).
Just give us a clean break. Everyone is upset with BFA so why indulge it any further? It’s a fantasy universe, you can do whatever you want. And I don’t credit that a jarring reset of tone and theme would be more harmful to the story than continuing to drag out BFA’s legacy.
I’m not disgusted with that idea, I even said evening the scales would be helping bring the dead elves back to life. What I don’t like is working with Tyrande who as much as I understand her hate, still belittle the horde members helping.
On this, I agree, if only because BfA’s legacy actually has a name to go with it:
Sylvanas Windrunner.
At the end of the day, she burned Teldrassil, she’s the one who keeps getting dragged out with this mind-numbing “is she BFFs with the Jailer or not?” plotline. It may be an easy out, it may even piss off old-school Forsaken who remember the morally-complicated visionary from The Frozen Throne through Cataclysm (I certainly do), but at this point I honestly don’t see any other resolution other than to make her the sacrificial lamb for the Horde’s—and yes, the Forsaken’s—redemption.
Hardly, They reverted any character growth she had previously in BFA. She no longer distrust the Horde at all and actively tries to maintain the peace with them while ignoring the slew of new crimes they had committed.
Worse they never really explained why she had this new outlook, Nothing that Happen to her or the Alliance in BFA really should have made her believe the Horde had changed.
In the latest novel she even seems appalled by the interrogation of Horde characters who were actively protecting Sylvanas’s lackies. All because she was concerned on how it would make Anduin look.
Sadly they just reverted fully back to a Peacnik with no teeth who will probably end up dying after being betrayed by the horde for the millionth time.
Honestly the problem with the writing is that now the Horde is walking on a tightrope and any misstep means it gives alliance full rights to wipe them out. Sadly I can see the writers shaking that tightrope for more drama till the Horde falls flat on its face and can’t be saved.
I see the somewhat similar resolution where she gets to kill/defeat the people who ruined her life(lives?) and then go to the afterlife/oblivion she wanted in Edge Of Night. People who never want to see her again never have to and get the resolution of her dying/vanishing, and people who don’t like the way they’ve taken her story get to have some sense of resolution in seeing all of this be for… something.
I don’t see value in satisfying the desires of people who have a perverse need to see her humiliated or tortured, reading those kind of posts gives me a dirty feeling. Thankfully from what we’ve seen they likely aren’t going to get what they’re breathing heavily over.
People want some kind of consequences and retribution enacted against a character who has done more narrative damage to this franchise than any other. She has personally out done any other villain either faction has faced and has been able to dodge the consequences for her actions for no other reason besides being an author favorite. She deserves to be brought to justice, anything less breaks the narrative of SL over its knee and sends an awful thematic message that excuses mass murder, torture, deception and betrayal.
This may be an unpopular stance, but I don’t think Sylvanas can be treated as part of the Horde anymore. Hence her fate is of only tangential interest to this topic.
I’m sure there are seven other threads where a conversation about a Sylvanas redemption can be held, but I’d prefer for it not to be this one.
I mean, I agree with both of you: there needs to be some kind of consequence for Sylvanas, the same way there was for Arthas. Because let’s face it: she’s gotten to that level of “irredeemable evil” villainy.
Exactly, which is why I’m frankly just ready to move on and stop hearing about “Sylvanas’ New Evil Scheme of the Week.” As far as the faction relations go, she’s irrelevant outside of being the price of Tyrande’s forgiveness toward Thrall.
Which is actually pretty forgiving on Tyrande’s part, her recognizing that Sylvanas is personally to blame, rather than the Horde as a whole, when you consider everything that happened throughout the War of the Thorns.
Which is actually pretty forgiving on Tyrande’s part, her recognizing that Sylvanas is personally to blame, rather than the Horde as a whole, when you consider everything that happened throughout the War of the Thorns.
Yeah, and I haven’t been shy about saying that I don’t really like that forgiveness towards the playable faction - and this is also, in turn, why I disagree with solutions that have the Horde trying to make things up to the Night Elves or that end with there being no conflict between the two.
I believe there should be a conflict between the factions, if one that players have the option to participate in, instead of a feeling that they are being forced to do this, that, or the other thing because that’s what the narrative wants to do.
Sigh … short answer, you can’t. More accurate answer, you can, but Blizz has never shown that they are willing to invest in the faction enough to do it. But, if I were going to throw caution to the wind and suggest something practical…
To start, within the SLs, Blizz needs to get the three characters were likely to take back with us to where their people (and the Horde) need them to be. That means individual growth-based character arcs for Thrall and Baine (to deal with some of their massive character deficits as leaders), and tangible results for Vol’jin’s ascendance to Loa (and it tying into Sen’jin’s prophecy). These fools need sufficient development to where they can serve as reasonable pillars (that don’t need focus) so we can focus on others. And I would prefer this comes with tangible “power-ups” to reflect that growth.
What happens after we get back though depends on the status of things when we return. But a little part of me does hope that the Alliance hits the Horde hard in our absence. Using the Lightbound and Yrel (that they have no reason to be wary of) to offset the costs they were worried about. The Horde Council is very untested, and the majority of council members left behind even more so. So, stress test them. Have the Horde near the breaking point by the time we all get back from the lands of the dead; around the same time the Alliance’s new “ally” starts getting SUPER shifty. Then we go from there.
It lets the Alliance get some long overdue hits in; get some healthy grey in their veins; allows them to be the “unwitting” shepherd of the Light Cosmology incursion … but it also gives opportunities for the Council System and its untested members to get tested. Its amazing how many of our current racial leaders need it. And from that struggle, we can start redefining and reclaimings some sort of Faction Identity. And through the Alliance’s misplaced trust in someone they have no reason not to trust … the Horde might get some opportunities to be heroes again. Helping clean up an Alliance mess for once.
It is incredibly tempting for me to just say “it can’t be done”. And in truth it really can’t. Not with the way the story has played out up until this point. The reason the Horde could recover from the WC2 era was because there was a clean break between them and because most of the modern Horde had nothing to do with the Second War.
But now it is the current Horde that did the Bad Thing. Teldrassil is a looming cloud that will forever be cast over the faction. It cannot be undone or forgotten. It cannot truly be redeemed.
This is made worse by the fact the Horde hasn’t done anything useful since… Wrath? I think Wrath was the last time the Horde got to meaningfully use their military to help defeat a major villain instead of smashing the Alliance.
So my proposition; Retcons. Lots and lots of retcons.
Not removing BfA from canon, though I’d certainly love that to be the case. We need examples of the Horde doing good things in previous expansions. Particularly Legion. Maybe write a book about the Tauren and orcs waging war against the demons while the events on Argus went on. Maybe showcase the Horde fighting against N’Zoth in a bigger way during BfA.
Basically just go back and inject some Horde heroism into places where the Horde logically should have been involved but just wasn’t on-screen.
Then go back and flesh out the Horde’s reaction to Teldrassil. Show Lor’themar, Baine, Thalyssra, Rokhan, etc. etc. as wanting to stand against Sylvanas but not being able to. Maybe show them going against Sylvanas’ orders on the down low to quietly subvert her rule. Anything that makes them look less like gullible bafoons and more like heroes with agency of their own. And most importantly disprove the notion than the majority of the Horde was pro-Sylvanas.
Basically just… Go back and write the Horde how it always should’ve been written.
Once an actual foundation of Horde heroism has been set we can start building back up from there. Maybe have a big moment in Shadowlands where the Alliance is being overrun and the Horde charge in to save them.
Teldrassil will always be a scar, but at least then there’d be enough good in having the Horde around to make them a defensible faction as they’d be instrumental in keeping Azeroth safe.
How do you ensure that retcons have enough visibility for most people to realize that they’re taking place? I feel like a lot of the retcon-based solutions run the risk of being too obscure to fix the problem.
Well, the easiest way to ensure high visibility for the retcons would be to turn it into gameplay. The Caverns of Time is excellent for that if Blizzard really had the desire to do it.
Chromie: “Heroes, we must journey back to the Legion’s final invasion. An ex-Legion sorcerer has used their magic to go back in time and crush Azeroth’s resistance when the heroes of the Vindicaar were away. We must fight alongside Baine and Rokhan in defense of the Barrens until he makes his move, then destroy him before the timeline can be destroyed!”
Player: “But why would that matter? If the Legion is defeated in Argus the forces on Azeroth will be no threat.”
Chromie: “If Azeroth is conquered then the defeat of Sargeras will be for naught. There will be no home for the heroes to return to, and the last and best chance for the survival of the mortal world will be snuffed out completely.”
Beyond that? They could do an anthology series for Youtube. Most players watch the trailers and cinematics there anyway, so a mini-series detailing different historical moments we never got to experience in-game would reach a decent chunk of the audience.
It all depends on how much money Blizzard is willing to throw at it, really.
But how is the Horde supposed to be redeemed if you won’t let them even try to fix the problems of BfA? You take the most obvious option off the table and then ask for another way of fixing it…
(Note: It’s not something I personally want to do. I didn’t do the WoT, so I don’t feel like my character owes anything to the NEs. But I get that it would make some Horde players feel better, and some Alliance ones too.)
I mean, I don’t hold veto power, ultimately, but I also get the feeling that a lot of Horde players don’t want to save Night Elf souls either. I’ve seen plenty of commentary lamenting that they’re being made to do it. I’ve also seen what you’ve mentioned - people not feeling that they owe anything to the Night Elves, or frankly, that they should even apologize. I think this is an understandable reaction to the narrative railroading you into taking the faction war to extremes that hurt huge portions of the playerbase, shaming you for something you couldn’t control, and then demanding your penance by forcing you to make up for actions that again, you didn’t choose to take. I see a lot of problems with that, especially if we want to stand up the faction rivalry again (just in a way which both sides are motivated to actually participate in), which I do.
Now, from my perspective, you are my faction rival. I don’t want you pitying me or my playable race. I am tired of having the character that I want to play framed as an object of pity.
This is a question that doesnt have an answer and its very convoluted you want to redeem the horde in the terms dictated by the horde while redemption has to be given by the offended party which may or may not decide in giving it?
You may want to change the title to atonement.
To op, redemption by its secular definition is impossible, first because we would need to agree as a faction to forgive them and i will never do that so you can count me off, second they need to ask for forgivenes and this is even more impossible, as you can see most of them are unapologetic because several reasons some because they’re unrepentant cretins happy that teldrassil happened (and i would really like to believe this is a minority even if bfa questing told me otherwise) or because the more reasonable thing, they didnt asked to be railroaded into being complicit of genocide.
To kisin i would go further, im game with an expansion where we delete bfa from history via timetravel.
But that aint happening and beyond being able to save all those civies and feel good while doing that i wouldnt know what else my faction could be doing.
Back to op, so yea the only thing most of these forums posters agree including myself is that the story is fubar because of bfa, we tried to come to some kind of compromise, we talked about it several times on the months before SL where there was practically nothing to do, i quickly realized most people would never accept a compromise and why should they? i totally understand if they dont cuz im the same.