Amusingly enough, in my post the only thing that even required alliance at all was the point of a Horde faction being thr main Expansion faction. Everything else didnt require the Alliance at all.
And for the record, I just find the idea of a rebuild Theramore with Forsaken architecture with Dread Admiral Proudmoore, Lord of Theramore to be a very neat idea.
But gotta stay whinging I guess.
This kind of comments…
Look, both factions have stuff to complain about. Yes, the Horde did get a story line that we would be generous in calling less than ideal. Yes, getting villain batted sucks. However, the Alliance also has good reason to complain. The Alliance has gotten absolutely shafted in terms of story. Less content. Less story. Repeated lectures on how the Horde that is murdering us is really good and we are bad for fighting it. Etc. etc. So, don’t pretend the Alliance players don’t have very legitimate complaints.
But, what I was trying to point out is: From what we see of time and effort put in to both factions, Blizzard’s priority is the Horde. So, they do not think it is the wrong choice.
Here is the thing. I think you are looking at it wrong. I would agree that a ‘forced’ atonement is not a good thing. That would be punishment. And it doesn’t prove they have changed. I don’t want to see the Horde being forced to do X, Y or Z. I think we should be seeing the Horde choose to to X, Y and Z. I want to see the Horde story showing us they are honorable going forward.
Here is kind of the problem with your argument. The Alliance isn’t portrayed as the right choice, at least not in game and media. The game and media Blizzard puts out is telling us over and over they are both wrong. In fact, sometimes the NPCs act like the Alliance is worse. Outside the game we look at the things done and say, wait a minute. But in game (and in Blizzard released media) we get told just how “bad” the Alliance is for fighting the Horde.
I would agree. And they could have easily added a path for those that were against the war far earlier. Baine could have found out about the plan to burn the tree and sent Horde players who chose to be on his side to try and stop it. Have them fail to stop it, but manage to prevent the destruction of some fleeing refugee ships.
Then have little quests along the way for those Horde players to try and undermine Sylvanas and minimize the damage from her cruelty. Things like when the Horde attacks Stormsong Valley those players help civilians escape the Horde attack. Things like that could even help explain why the Alliance would take a softer view of things like withdrawing with minimal collateral damage at Dazar’alor. And explain why the Alliance would trust any of the Horde. While at the same time making the Horde PC feel less culpable in the crimes of the Horde.
‘Yah, we were bad. But we are good now. Honestly, you can trust us this time.’
That is the whole problem. The Horde has already said they were ‘good now’ repeatedly. They need to show it. Actions > Words.
Thrall was behind the whole thing. It was his idea to try. And he is the only one trying to do anything to make it right. Baine has said he feels bad. But we aren’t seeing him do anything. Let alone the Horde in general.
Because she wronged them, made repeatedly clear. Even look at the interaction at Icecrown. Not exactly what you would expect someone who feels bad about their part.
Exactly. We need to see the Horde’s showing us they are better. Not just saying it.
Then you are not paying attention.
It is simple. Horde sees the wrong they did. Horde chooses to try and fix what they can from those wrongs. It is not about what the Alliance demands or tells them to do. The Alliance has not demanded anything that we know of. It is about the Horde making a choice to do the right thing and doing it. If you think that is submission you don’t understand the word.
Conspiracy theory.
Right, it’s happened twice before now, is what I meant.
I didn’t actually count post-BfA because, well…we’re kind of still in the middle of that process.
I know I’m nitpicking this from the rest of your post, but this didn’t really happen the first time around either. Instead of following through with anything, WoD happened to distract everyone and apparently the horde just had to start hostilities for Ashran because of course they did.
No thanks. Forsaken in a humid bog might make a nice home for whatever tier of undead Derek is, but normal Forsaken would rot away in no time.
I was referring to between Warcraft 2 and 3. Way before Blizzard hit their heads and decided M E T A L was the thing to do.
EDIT: Don’t try typing on a cellphone, your thoughts are scattered so badly it hurts.
We didn’t even know about this, and the only reason they did away with the Darkshore concentration camps is because there was enough backlash. My god Blizz’s writers have a hard on for villain batting the Horde, but without letting the Horde Players actually know about it. Like, Teld is not even allowed to be mentioned by the Horde reps during the War Campaign. Only Thrall and Saurfang are allowed opinions on it, and they were kept deliberately away.
My bad. I was confused and thought you were talking about Cata/MoP.
And that’s the problem:
The Horde redeeming themselves in Reign of Chaos was a game-changer.
Them screwing up and promising to redeem themselves repeatedly in World of Warcraft is more like the definition of insanity.
Which only started post MoP.
The Horde’s actions in Cataclysm through MoP should and likely was intended to show how the Horde had indeed changed and would have been their commitment to the whole, not evil thing.
Then WoD happened and showed the orcs of Draenor were actually just clueless idiots. Then Legion killed off the new “change” Vol’jin and replaced him with Sylvanas which almost, almost was a good decision until Blizzard activated their Trap Card and sent us into BfA and revealed to everyone that M E T A L was in and this ride was about to get epic (read: stupid as hell).
Technically, it started post-Wrathgate with Varian declaring war on the Horde again.
…which then got retconned as, “Garry started it!”
Except, again, they literally had their Warchief be villain-batted.
Something that enraged Horde players everywhere, especially after having seen “Stonetalon Garrosh” in comparison.
And of course, set the stage for the exact same formula to follow in BfA.
The fact you consider Vol’jin’s death and replacement by Sylvanas as “almost a good thing” tells me a lot about what you think of the Horde. Nothing like killing off the last leader we had from WC3 in one of the most insulting ways imaginable; to shoe horn in a woman he hated into the Drivers seat. One who barely represented even her own people well. One who never was given an impetus to move beyond her “Alliance of Convenience”, and who only did one thing in all of Legion as Warchief. Go into Stormheim on a shifty as hell personal errand, and pull an Homage to Arthas’ “new world order” when he killed his father. But only to the Alliance PC. Yeah … Sylvanas was never intended to do anything good with the Warchief spot.
She was good at putting on a face, but there is only one functional reason you kill off someone like Jin for her. To get her to do something he never would. Which was to be the villain in the next Faction War.
What isn’t a conspiracy theory is that
Planning about 2 expansions in advance. While they don’t know specifics, they did know they were going to Shadowlands. They knew that Bwonsamdi originally wasn’t going to play a big role in Shadowlands, but people were excited about his character in BFA so they decided to bring him more to the frontlines in Shadowlands.
Yes, I said it was almost a good decision. Because, assuming they didn’t have any story ideas for Vol’jin, but they DID have some good ones for Sylvanas, the door was open to telling said stories with a Warchief who didn’t want the role but was thrust in it and having to work to actually gain the respect of the Horde and blah blah blah, I doubt you really care about what actually goes through my mind anyway.
But yes, when Sylvanas was made Warchief and Legion started and she wasn’t her usually mustache twirling evil, I was optimistic.
Plot twist:
They only decided to include Bwonsamdi as a non-villain after he visited both Danuser and Hazzikostas in their nightmares and whispered deep into their ears:
“Nah nah, mon. I know you not be wantin’ to do ol’ Bwonsamdi like dat. WHAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!”
It makes perfect sense if you’re intent is to run away from the consequences of taking the Horde for a joyride and crashing it into a tree (pun intended). Its a “run away from the consequences” expansion. Blizz refuses to actually build the Horde Faction up, they only like to tear it down. Its way more fun. So why on Earth would you have any semblance of Spirit-Worship, Forsaken, or Bwon relevance in your Death themed expansion? Its all Light and DKs right?
To play devil’s advocate for a bit, “not play a big role” isn’t the same thing as not playing a role at all. I still think they were planning to off him, simply because it makes more narrative sense that he’d have been a villain and be the one playing Vol’jin instead of some random loa tapping the ghost phone, but that quote could have easily meant “we just weren’t going to use him” after keeping him around anyway.
Kinda like how Sky Admiral Rogers didn’t do anything in all of BFA despite popping up in Legion specifically to push hostilities.
Yes, nothing quite like killing off the Darkspear’s Patron Loa who has always had a positive relationship with Jin to really sell “We’re going to build up the Horde” am I right? Meh, after WoD, its sort of expected that these “escape” expansions are designed to tear down and villain bat the culture and history of Horde races, while the MU Horde is having down time from tearing down and villain batting itself. Which is why I expect no relevance of Spirit Worship in Shadowlands of any kind. Filthy Tauren and their wrong spiritualism. 
If I were a white man and had created a character based on the real-world leader of the Ghede Lwa of Voodoo, and was planning on demonizing that character, I would simply fear for my life and the punishment of the spirits
The uselessness of Shamans in this expansion, they fact they have DEATH KNIGHT MAGES LMAOOOO maintaining the portals is INSANE
Madeline Roux in her interviews with both Nobbel and Pyromancer affirmed that she had actually been asked to change the plot of the children’s book. It was supposed to end with the kids killing Mueh’zala (a bunch of alliance children killing the most ancient and mysterious loa of troll mythology lmao) to Mueh’zala leaving.
My money is on they were going to reveal in Shadowlands Mueh’zala and Bwonsamdi were the same person, much like how in Voodoo, Legba and Met Kalfu are considered “mirrors”/aspects of eachother in some traditions.
Ergo villain bat.
Yes. And none of that has changed. We still should be wary of him. Shadowlands has made it very clear that he has his own priorities. He is not evil. But he is also not a good guy. He does things for his own interests primarily. Our interests align, but that doesn’t mean he wouldn’t also take advantage if he could.
That would actually go against the claim he was almost villain batted. So…where are you going with that?
Also:
Is not the same as:
In other words: He was always going to be in the Shadowlands. But he was not going to play as big a part as he does now.
It doesn’t though. Considering his relationship with Bwom prior to his death, If it had been Bwom telling him Vol’jin not naming Bwom would have seemed odd.
Not to mention that if Bwom had really been working with the Jailor, Vol’jin and the Darkspear would have been a tool to use, not to throw away.