When the developers went to all this trouble to get rid of two player capitals that they saw no further use, you think they’re going to build another player capital that players won’t use?
You know I find the decision to get rid of them in the first place to still be odd, even disused they still hold significance to many players at least here who have fond memories of starting their journeys in those places. And the backlash to losing those two capitals from what I’ve seen has been pretty decent, so it wasn’t worth destroying I’d say.
3 Likes
“Many” is relative… especially in a player base that’s numbered in the millions.
The reality is that averaged over the entire player base those areas saw no traffic, even on roleplaying servers such as Earthen Ring. And with the decline of world roleplay the ones that remain are seeing even less.
1 Like
Blizzard didn’t get rid of Teldrassil and Undercity because of some arbitrary, meaningless statistics of, “Oh, players on average spend this many hours in this city.”
They got rid of them because of their misplaced, “We need big booms and explosions” Hollywood syndrome, which remained present all throughout Battle for Azeroth.
And yes, both the Night Elf and Forsaken playerbases alike do have fond memories of their respective cities, and were similarly affected by having them be forcibly taken away.
7 Likes
I would say the only semi-justifiable way we’d see revamped Capitals is if they were made as hybrid Player Hub and Questlng areas. There has to be a story there that is worth it, beyond the mechanical epicenter for player traffic. Something like Surumar, but with a section or two of the city for the commodities.
1 Like
They don’t believe that killing Sylvanas will redeem them, they believe that they have a duty to stop her because it’s the right thing to do. Well, that and a lot of the Horde also want her dead out of revenge for her betrayal of them, including quite a few of the Forsaken.
The thing that makes going after Sylvanas a big factor in regards to the relationship with the Alliance is that Tyrande has told Thrall to his face that she doesn’t want to ever see him again unless he’s delivering Sylvanas’ head to her, and that isn’t presented as “do this and you will be forgiven” as much as “do this if you even want me to acknowledge your existence.” The Horde is not under any illusion that they can actually make amends, because Tyrande has made it perfectly clear that is impossible, so they’re doing what they can do: act to show that their words about the Horde changing aren’t empty, starting with Sylvanas and her schemes. Going after Sylvanas isn’t presented as the end point, it’s the starting line. Sira Moonwarden was captured and sent to Tyrande by the Horde, specifically as a down payment on future actions, but there isn’t an expectation from the Horde that Tyrande will relent because of it.
It’s not that the Horde doesn’t want to redeem themselves, it’s that they aren’t relying on Alliance forgiveness as their motivation, because they don’t expect that the Alliance ever will, and they completely understand why. That’s not going to make them stop trying to be better though, because it’s the right thing to do, both morally and for the long term health of the Horde, and if doing the right thing happens to soothe relations with the Alliance, that’s a welcome bonus, since they don’t want open hostilities to start up again.
Something else to consider: In addition to the already acknowledged atrocities against the Alliance, Sylvanas destroyed the Horde fleet and gutted the Horde military through her intentionally bad tactics, incited her loyalists to violence against their fellow citizens, destroyed Undercity, plotted to have Thrall killed at his home, attempted to execute Baine, plotted to have Lor’themar and Thalyssra killed in Nazjatar, plotted to have Bwonsamdi and Talanji killed, and then broke open the freakin’ sky and started a zombie apocalypse. Sylvanas must be dealt with before anything else major can be discussed, because she is an existential threat to the Horde along with everyone else on Azeroth. Remember, we didn’t stop the zombie invasion completely during the pre-patch, we just stopped the Mawsworn leader that was in Icecrown and helped get the Argent Crusade established, and then pushed into the Maw once the Ebon Blade was ready to go. We didn’t destroy all the feral Scourge or put an end to the Cult of the Damned; presumably the Argent Crusade took over dealing with them while we left for the Maw. Lor’themar is probably looking forward to something as mundane as diplomatic negotiations after the excitement of being the most senior member of the Council left on Azeroth during a literal zombie invasion.
4 Likes
Drahliana, as has been pointed out to you many times in the past, those areas still exist.
I know this because when I logged in, I walked around in Darnassus. You’re aware of this, I believe you commented on that post. I did so again last night and walked around the old city. In the old days, I could always find someone. It wasn’t packed, but it was populated enough that there was always someone - hanging out here or there, someone who I could approach and talk to.
Last night? No one - not a soul. I remember noticing for the first time - after having RPed in that city for years - just how similar the musical notes were to the Warcraft 3 soundtrack. I remember appreciating little details about the city that I hadn’t seen in years, and that I certainly wouldn’t have noticed when the city was alive. But above all I noticed the starkness and the loneliness of a city lost to time.
Maybe I’m just being melancholy because as I’m getting older - which feels odd to say as a “90s kid”. But it makes me miss the memories that I had in that city.
But it is still there. Server resources are going into it. You can still visit it. Maybe if you do one night you’ll find me wandering around, getting lost in experiences that I’ll never get back.
1 Like
Well, I hope that you are right. But I don’t have much hope.
I mean Van presents a compelling argument on the horde making attempts already, not just with Syl but clearing out the loyalists and sending Sira as a present to Tyrande hard to say it’s the horde sifting blame solely on Syls shoulders. Even Lor reflected on how he had wished he had acted sooner, but his previous relationship with Sylvanas caused him to hesitate. After all he was at one point friends with her, and she did die a hero to his people.
Seeing Vans statement fills me with hope now, even though it is faint.
1 Like
It’s a start. But that’s all it is. If the Horde truly want to redeem themselves in the eyes of those they’ve wronged, they need to show commitment to this new path. Capture Gallywix and turn him over to face trial for war crimes, including war profiteering. Bring down Sylvanas, and deliver her head to Tyrande, or even better, point Tyrande at her, and let her sate her thirst for vengeance.
Most importantly, they need to actively prevent the rise of another Garrosh or Sylvanas. Because, if the Horde goes villain a third time, it’s going to destroy any possible reasoning as to why the Horde should survive as a faction. Even Anduin would find it difficult to come up with a reason to spare them.
1 Like
Pretty sure restructuring the entire central seat of government into a Council system will ensure that on a story level. On a meta level though, nothing will stop Blizz if they want the Horde to “do some soul searching” again. And by that I mean, clearly just use the faction as a plot device and vehicle to settup a future villain and future expansion. Then runoff to another dimensions to avoid the messy “rebuilding” process … again … leaving the Faction, its Identity, Racial Fantasies, and Character Roster in ruin.
Just remember, to settup this oh so lovely “soul searching”, Blizz had to kill Vol’jin (our last WC3 Era Leader) in one of the most insulting ways imaginable; compel him to “listen to the Loa” (when Bwon, his patron, hates Undeath); and overcome his own deep dislike and mistrust of Sylvanas himself to nominate her Warchief. Oh, and all the other Horde reps were forced to also “get over” their dislike and mistrust of her and be made/kept convenient for her. All to settup SLs. Yeah, BfA Horde is totally our natural state.
As for Wix. He’s not protected by the armistice. No one has really seen him since the Goblin Heritage questline (which I honestly have no idea if that was supposed to happen canonically before the end of the war in 8.2.5 or not). You want him, go get him. But I warn you, he’s alarmingly good at keepinrg himself alive. That may be his truest gift and talent. And if you’re going after him for such a thing, you might want to also worry about the Steamwheedle in the NEs own back yard first. They’re also War Profiteers.
4 Likes
Ironically, Terenas apathetic ruling and overconfidence IS -as I mentioned before- probably the reason why Kel´thuzad´s little cut raised in power literally under Terena´s nose, building the road for the whole “Arthas gets desperate, follows Mal´ganis to Lich King´s neighborhood and becomes the literal Bringer of the Apocalypse for Lordaeron as a consequence” chain of events.
Sooo… Terenas IS guilty. Not directly BUT he has part of the blame on his hands.
Likewise, Lor´themar manifesting the woman that got herself and most of the Desolate Council killed thanks to her lack of control, foolishness and imprudence is “wise” IS stupid AF. Especially when this implies he would had no issue with leaders getting their subjects killed for evident and preventable reasons -something absolutely OOC for him-.
Sunwell doesn´t “lighforge” the Belves, and not only this, but nowadays we have evidence the Light is NOT the by default “goodie two shoes lawful good” magical source we supposed it was back in TBC.
The light magical component of the Sunwell is irrelevant when it can´t actually positively influence the Elves -to suppose that IS to headcanon, period-. Case in point: Lorash. I didn´t see him getting “converted by the Light” to become a “better person”.
Belves WILL still resort to questionable magic (hello Anima Golems) -ofc with responsability, reason why they outlawed void cause void is simply a hazard for their Sunwell, period- and remorselessly stab you in the face in a brutal way if they think it´s benefitial to them.
Light doesn´t make “people good”. Case in point: Yrel and Xe´ra itself.
I know I´m just pulling your ear so to say.
Some people effectively put more value on aesthetics but as long as you guys understand that´s a personal choice and don´t start with the “Belves ruined muh Hurde!!” BS I have no problem with you.
Not according to Tv Tropes… they USED to be the “High Elf” trope indeed; not anymore. The only trait that was kept was them living in their FORMER shining city (half of it is in ruins ffs). They may have a “magical oriented culture” but sure as hell they aren´t “better mages” than the Humans in WoW and their arrogance was diminished by a LOT in the lore post Arthas fiasco -I know, there are the usual overrated “arrogant” Belf NPCs in leveling zones, but the ACTUAL developed characters? Actually quite humble, they -as Elisande correctly put it- have no issue working with “savages” in a respectful manner after all.
Yup. One just have to check the actual tv Tropes related to it.
They want engagement with the story. People like Blizzard would rather have us hate the story or characters than to not care.
A bit like Boralus and Zul’Dazar then ? It’s one of the things I liked about those. Things happened there.
1 Like
That’s what they say publicly, but I really wonder what they’re saying about it behind closed doors.
Probably We screwed up, that story point didn’t go over well as we thought it would
3 Likes
Sick Zandalari, I can recommend some transmog!
If they need a hub for an expansion on Azeroth, they have two places to work. Besides the whole point of destroying two hubs wasn’t because of players don’t use that area but rather as Danuser wanted to do his own Game of Throne and superhero storyline with the rest of the team.
You could say this arc is pointless as civil war in Marvel
I will definitely need some good mog recommendations, I got a good raptari tmog but I’m thinking of making a prelate of Rezahn perhaps
Gallywix has been set up as a potential future villain, doubt we’ve seen the last of him. The Council has already been vocal about making sure that there isn’t ever another Sylvanas or Garrosh, that’s the stated reason for getting rid of the Warchief position in the first place. Unrepentant Sylvanas loyalists have been hunted down and captured. Horde players had an entire year of this being the constant background chatter and goings-on of Orgrimmar. Just because Alliance-only players didn’t see this doesn’t mean it didn’t happen.
If you want to know why Horde players might be tired of all this “redeem yourself in the eyes of the Alliance! Show us you’ve changed!” talk, it’s because we’ve seen the Horde trying to do exactly that since the war campaign finale in 8.2.5. If you spent any time in Orgrimmar at all on a max-level character, it was impossible to miss, because it was constant. It’s not our fault that Blizzard didn’t show the Alliance a scene of Lor’themar offering to grovel before Tyrande, or that Thrall’s attempt at offering apologies and remorse on behalf of the Council (with Baine and Calia present alongside him) was hidden in a book. It’s also not Horde players’ fault if Alliance-only players don’t play both sides of the story or make other efforts to see the Horde questing experience. Alliance-only players, rather than saying vague things like, “the Horde needs to do better,” (which they are) or “the Horde needs to show remorse” (which they have), please be specific and say what you want to see as part of your Alliance questing experience, since it seems that none of you are going to see anything done in the Horde questing experience, and not everyone is going to read books like Shadows Rising and see the development done there. The Horde questing experience has already covered the leadership showing remorse and guilt and starting the process of trying to do better and keep the cycle of hatred broken, and the next logical step in that process is going after Sylvanas, which we are currently doing, along with the side objective of rescuing Kaldorei souls from the Maw once we get into the Shadowlands. What do you want to see in the Alliance experience to address the matter?
9 Likes
Well said there.
1 Like