How can we redeem/rebuild the Horde?

Lore Story Forum
2897

To be fair, it was less overt or insulting than what’s happened more recently in Mists of Pandaria and Battle for Azeroth—it’s been a slow decline over time.

At least in The Burning Crusade you still got the impression that the Blood Elves (those of the Horde) were taking an active part in what was essentially a civil war across two separate planets—we see this with the Blood Elf questgivers and their questchain in Netherstorm, for example.

And of course, the Sin’dorei made up half of the Shattered Sun Offensive at Quel’Danas. So at the very least, it wasn’t nearly as insulting as Siege of Orgrimmar and the mak’gora at Orgrimmar, both of which took place during expansions that specifically painted the Horde as actually being unable to solve its own problems without the Alliance.

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2898

Since the whole discussion is here now, then …
“Disciples”, restart. New rot for old universes, hurray!
A little more serious. What can you get from there for the Horde and the Nelfs?

2899

Indeed. Instead of keeping the interesting bits from the WC3 Alliance -I mean they WERE waaaay more interesting back then-, devs decided to start the “let´s make them interesting by proxy of making them look important/better than the Horde by comparison cause God forbids we portray them as anything but one dimensional parangons of lawful good”.

Dude, I´d absolutely LOVE for the Belves to regain their former “utalitarian” worship and for them to actually find common ground with the other Horde paladins by proxy of taking a Solar religion or something.

I hate what the Alliance had done to the development of my faction literary wise… no matter how much you try to spin it, fact is, the interaction between BOTH factions in the story has historically ruined the Horde by proxy of making it look as lesser/more evil/more ignorant than the Alliance cause they inevitably end up getting compared, with very VERY few examples contradictig this status quo (the Velf intro scenario is one of them).

So can you blame ME for rather wanting the elimination of THIS detrimental interaction which impact has been mostly negative for the actual coherent and constructive growth of the Horde story?

Why should we have to “deal” with your High King in OUR story in the first place? Heck, for as much as you people moan and cry over Sylvanas, apart from the Lordaeron Cinematic you didn´t had to interact with her in any sahpe, way or form ever again.

I had to kill a Sunreaver villain batted to defend Jaina in the “let´s rescue the Horde Wrynn plor device A.K.A. Baine”. So don´t even try to compare. I had to work with Brann 5 min after he was being represented as the Alliance character in charge of opossing the Horde in Nazmir. I had to stand Voss simping for Calia as if Calia had done something to help the Forsaken when the self insert has never ever actually interacted with Forsaken characters different from Voss herself, basically ran ASAP to play therapist for the Undead NELVES and chilled around Jaina el at in Kul Tiras.

Last time I saw NOBODY called you a NEFPA, so I´ll have to repeat myself yet AGAIN: drop the victim complex and start delivering arguments if you want your opinion to be taken seriously.

People calls you a troll cause you don´t even try to defend your posts with arguments cimented in the lore or the narrative advantage, but because anytime someone puts a little pressure on you you simply start acting like a victim and attacking the posters.

Dude, the Horde the only thing it can do for the Nelves is to let them get some sort of “violent catharsis”… but the actual “we look incompetent” problem needs to be addresed with the actual narrative agent making them look incompetent A.K.A. Stormwind.

The Horde doesn´t need anything from any Alliance interaction whatsoever as long as the blue faction continues with the “we can´t have flaws being depicted / aknowledged” in game BS… quite the contrary, the less trhey interact, the better cause then Horde won´t be made to look worse in those inane comparison exercises.

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2900

Side note Ariel, Vuldezi admitted to being an Alliance Main in another thread. This is their Horde sock puppet they’re just playing on, presumably for the sake of his guild or whatever.

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2901

The Alliance playerbase hasn’t done squat to your precious faction. The Horde relished having the Alliance rules by an incompetent Boy King, until he was the incompetent Boy King stomping around their capital, which I’m repeating, but it’s true. The Horde is the only one capable of making itself look lesser in the story. I can’t control your faction leaders not standing up to another tyrant, it’s just something both factions get to deal with since the tyrant starts out killing Alliance forces.

What detrimental interaction? The faction conflict? It could have been great, but after Tyrande kills Sylvanas there shouldn’t be a villain batting of an Alliance character what sense does that mke? Let the Horde grow idc, sounds great.

Why should you have to deal with him in the first place? Well the Horde is killing mothers, civilians, and their own people left and right, for the second expansion. The Alliance is supposed to just take a hands off approach to dealing with the Horde?

Please try to not play blind to accusations against me, when they’re following up your own posts.

2902

The problem is NOT him maining Alliance or Horde, the problem is he does come as someone that sees no problem with getting a relatively “preferential” treatment for the faction he likes / identifies with more at the cost of bad writting that actually has done nothing but RUIN both factions.

The “Absolute Moral Good” narrative path applied for the Alliance has left them looking like an artificial drone that will receive any form of systematical abuse cause fighting back with similar violence IS a flaw. Also, as an entirely reactive entity that doesn´t evolve in the story simply because it´s more important to keep the moral status quo related to it (ergo, why they come off as painfully boring for some of us).

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2903

Why are you so obsessed? Are you role playing a nosey loser?

It’s not a side note if that’s the only thing you can manage to peep up about.

2904

Do you even read? Where did I mention the Alliance playerbase whatsoever?

On the other hand the Alliance as a narrative actor has done a lot of worse for the narrative development of the Horde. The way this very game is being written RIGHT NOW is bad for BOTH factions, cause it has done nothing but to perpetuate a catch-22 in which the story goes from Horde “abusing” the Alliance in ONE stance so the Alliance can save those poor barbarians from themselves then “neutral expac in which everybody hold hands no matter how ridiculous and surreal it looks” and back to the abuse cycle.

It is a terrible standard for a milion dollar company that probably DOES have the money to actually invest in decent writers or the application of actual quality control policies.

ALL the interactions. Cause going from being portrayed as WoW´s version of Hitler and punished because of it just to get our characters ignored / neglected so Alliance / formerly Alliance / Alliance flavored characters can take front and center of the story while dealing with actual FOTM cosmic threats IS bad for the narrative development of the Horde too (reason why the cast of the Alliance leadership is made from “neutered only in PvP” demigods and the leadership cast of the Horde is “rando nobodies that don´t even have a constructive impact on the story… heck they don´t even exist sometimes”.

Dude, that´s an answer related to posters frotting at the mouth at the chance of acting just as barbaric as the Horde but not having to pay the price for it… cause the unfairness in only Horde characters getting called in their BS IS the thing we´ve been trying to point out since the very firsts posts.

To put it in perspective, if you guys wanna play as Batman, then you better be prepared to pay the price just like Batman has to pay it sometimes… you can´t pretend to play as Batman but getting coddled like Captain America is FAIR writting.

As a matter of fact? Yes. It´s NOT the job of the Alliance to babysitt the Horde. Nobody named them the official Azewroth PD, ergo they just have to care for their own Alliance civilians and territories, period.

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2905

If you’re angry about someone ‘reveling in moral absolutism’ I doubt you’re referencing characters in the narrative.
You’re accusing someone of doing something to your faction by doing that, whoever that is…

Yeah. Because Genn doing something, anything to the Horde, has a reprisal of genocide against his faction. Instead of anything remotely reasonable, or adverse to the idea the Horde aren’t bloodthirsty monsters. So when stuff like that happens, idk how I’m supposed to expect Anduin to scold the only ‘grey’ we might have had. Have it be right? And then not get to do anything about it, while the Horde as a whole pout about not being able to touch their own faction leader over the gross overreaction.

2906

I´ve affirmed SEVERAL -basically ALL- times the problem of the moral absolutism IS something related to the way the Alliance and it´s characters are written… I have NEVER said this is an “Alliance player” problem -sorry to burst your bubble guys, but Blizzard couldn´t care less over your opinions just like they don´t give a rat´s behind over our own opinion as Horde players-.

The “Alliance player” problem only becomes a factor regarding especific “suggestions” made for those very same players in regards to how to SOLVe the Horde narrative (ergo the rejection of the scenario proposed by Kyalin IS a rejection of her scenario especifically, not us saying all and every Alliance player had anything to do with the narrative proposed in the first place). But overall? Of course not. You guys are just right next to us in the “see your faction burn for the lols” seat.

Sometimes I feel the players from both factions are basically the kidnapped male getting wrecked in Depeche Mode´s “Wrong” official video.

Ergo why Horde should had never ever been portrayed as “genocidals a-holes” in the first place if they´re too the protagonists of this MMO game.

See the problems carried by the BAD writting of this game?

Welcome to the Horde playerbase experience in regards to how the faction IS written.

An anecdote: my very best friend in this game is the typical average player that doesn´t care over the story. And the day the Warmongers Cinematic of Sylvanas was launched he expressely called me in Whatsapp in the middle of both of us´working day to vent over Blizzard ruining the story.

Food for thought.

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2907

Is being a “boring Goody two shoes artificial drone” really preferential treatment though? It’s just as bad and generic as an evil genocidal Horde.

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2908

How dare he main Alliance! BLASPHEMY!!!

2909

For the purposes of providing a compelling narrative, you’re not wrong.

But it is preferential treatment when the alternative is being cast in the role of “the bad guys.”

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2910

Indeed that’s just as terrible, and I DID mention that several times.

The catch-22 problem I call it.

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2911

But everyone always acts like it’s the better option of the two. It’s really not and whenever it’s brought up in discussions it’s never framed as being a good thing.

2912

It just sort of results in less consequences to their character roster, but no Phil you are absolutely right. Being made into a Boring Goody-Two Shoes Artificial Drone is a terrible position to be placed in to. Just like being villain batted for us Hordies. Which is why the goal should be to not force both factions into those two roles, and find a nicer middle ground.

One where the Alliance is allowed to act on their massive list of grievances, but aren’t immune to the consequences of that. And the Horde is allowed to have some validity, and frankly … consistency to let us be rebuilt for once. No one signed up for this Hero game to either be the Victims or the Villains all the time.

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2913

I don’t care to roll back, and check. But if you’re not accusing the Alliance player base of reveling about something that has happened I believe you, but it’s ludicrous to pretend that there aren’t absolute wing nuts here who are worried about that as a problem first and foremost.
Even the Alliance characters aren’t doing THAT much reveling as far as I’ve ‘noted’ in this past expansion. I shouldn’t have to expect, want, or even remotely see it as fair to have an Alliance character villain batted, screw that. I’ve said multiple times if it was something organic, I would love that. Genn shouldn’t even remotely have to deal with genocide as a result of his actions, but that’s NOT an Alliance thing. I haven’t seen that video, but everyone loves doing some plumbing to Personal Jesus.
They shouldn’t have been portrayed as genocidal, but at that point it’s not a morally absolute issue, it’s a ridiculous, overreaction the Horde get to briefly enjoy until the party’s over and egg is on their face.

That’s not remotely a welcome to the Horde player base similarity. No one Horde character was going to scold Sylvanas for Stormheim. She also did ALOT about it, and with it in the long run. It’s not comparable, and I hope it doesn’t seem like I’m comparing issues. There’s validity for what you’re saying, but that’s a lot more then I ever receive for my own opinions on what’s wrong here. At all.

2914

Eh, I’ll be the one to say it. From my perspective, it does seem preferable to boomeranging between hero or part-time villain because it leaves me feeling like my character doesn’t fit when being treated as a hero anymore.

But admittedly I haven’t been taking in the content from the point of view of being told you’re the hero during faction war expansions only to stop before the end because crossing the finish line means making the other faction feel bad, or that I’d be just as bad as them.

2915

I shouldn’t have to expect consequences involving losing my characters for the Horde’s validity as a faction. Just as I’ve never needed moral absolutism to validate my preferred faction either. I’m glad we’re having to share the Boy King at this point.

2916

Rebuilding through loss? How is that supposed to work? How should the Horde be able to rebuild when the Alliance starts to work off their thousand pages of outstanding consequences, where every time the Horde would be the target.