I’ll be brutally honest, I don’t give a fig about PvP. If Blizzard announced it was being removed tomorrow, I would shrug and go back to not logging in because the rest of the game is still crud. If PvP has to exist, it needs a lore justification, and as the story does interest me, I’d rather see something more beneficial to a long-term narrative; instead of throwing lives away in capture the flag, its just training. Helps address that issue of populations.
The Alliance has issues but the resolution need not be faction conflict. If the two factions would just ignore one another for a little while and focus on themselves, I think that’d benefit them both immensely. The Night Elves in particular could do with focusing on rebuilding their home.
But again, the problem is, the Horde … doesn’t really. Like it or not, we do not have the motives needed to stay invested in that story. Especially not after two rounds of villain batting that actively shamed us for participating in it. ATM, supporting the faction conflict on a story level only benefits the Alliance. Since they have a laundry list of motives and greivences to resolve.
That is not a reality that is shared by the Horde. So, I suppose the logical solution to support the Faction Conflict is to just let the one with motives and justifications (mountains of them) to actually play the aggressors for a while. There is no reason for anyone on the Horde to want to pick a fight right now; outside of Talanji … and she’s got too many problems at home to worry about atm to do so.
I’ll be brutally honest, I don’t give a fig about PvP. If Blizzard announced it was being removed tomorrow, I would shrug and go back to not logging in because the rest of the game is still crud. If PvP has to exist, it needs a lore justification, and as the story does interest me, I’d rather see something more beneficial to a long-term narrative; instead of throwing lives away in capture the flag, its just training. Helps address that issue of populations.
Ok, and I don’t care that you don’t care. You are not the only one playing this game. You do not get to have the game cater to you and only you while everyone else has to pound sand. A reasonable framework for addressing these issues is one that takes into account for all stakeholders, rather than one where you throw them under the bus because you don’t care about what other people want.
Regarding the Night Elves’ resolution - I’m sorry, but we’re not going to get on the road to repairing their issues until we restore the idea that they are competent against the faction rival. That requires that they strike back against the Horde in a way that’s not mired with Blizzard’s usual tepid way of approaching the notion of a Night Elven victory over the Horde.
I guess the difference between us then, is that I speak for myself, while you seem to be trying to speak for, ‘all the stakeholders.’
I’ll continue to air my personal feelings and opinions, thank you. I have no intention for speaking on behalf of anyone else, not knowing what they think or when their minds change.
I’m not going to pretend I know enough, or am passionate enough about Night Elves to even suggest I have a candle in that race. All I’ll say is, whatever happens, I do want to see them rebuild, whether they smack the Horde around in the process or not.
You’re speaking for yourself but you’re not considering that you need to make room for other people. I’m certainly not speaking for anyone else by keeping that consideration in mind. What I am doing is pointing out that saying “Oh, I don’t really care about this game mode you like” or “Oh, I don’t really care about that race anyway” is a bad way of approaching suggestions to this story.
The game at the end of the day has to be fun for the various groups of people playing it - we need to put aside anything resembling the “me first, me only” way of doing things.
You won’t hear me advocate for the removal of PvP if that’s your concern, but I doubt most PvP’ers actually care about the story, particularly when plenty are quite happy to use Mercenary Mode anyways. So, I expressed my own opinion of where I’d like to see the story justification for PvP go.
You don’t like that opinion? That’s fine. You’re perfectly entitled to disagree with an opinion. It’s not a fact or anything.
But to accuse me of suggesting the game needs to, ‘cater to me,’ in particular when I air my opinion, and then to say I need to consider, ‘all stakeholders,’ as if I have any right to consider what anyone else wants, is just illogical.
I’d argue that you have the responsibility to consider other needs. Otherwise you wind up suggesting things that flagrantly throw entire playable communities under the bus.
So if I’m understanding you correctly, my opinion needs to be tailored to match the opinions of others? That I need to repeat the opinions of others, and if my opinion differs then I need ignore it and agree with others because… I can only presume because they’re a majority even though there is absolutely no way to prove it?
When I say that you need to take into account the understanding of other stakeholders, that means that your solutions need to make room for them, and that you need to work with people when they tell you that your solution is throwing them under the bus instead of dismissing them by saying that you don’t care what they care about.
So when I offer the suggestion that the Battlegrounds be noted to be war games, I need to take into account others, and make room for Battlegrounds to not be war games?
Not sure what I’m supposed to do here. They’re war games or they’re not war games. I don’t think there is an in between there.
Seems a lot easier just to say, “I think this,” and then someone can say, “I disagree, I like it as is,” and then we just agree to disagree I would hope.
Sigh … so part of this is about reasserting the NE power fantasy, that they’re supposed to be more powerful than the entire Kali Horde combined.
If you want this, then let them be the aggressors Kyalin. The Horde has no motives or incentives to be invested in the Faction Conflict anymore. Least of all now after the second round of villain batting … without being allowed valid motives. It is not in the Horde Faction’s best interest to be invested in the Faction Conflict. So if you want it so bad, and the Alliance (and especially NEs) need that hit back so bad … then hit the hell back. Don’t try to twist some BS Horde catalyst for that aggression, so you can make the Horde the aggressors again to take your shots. Why can’t YOU (the faction with the motives to start it) actually start it? Why do WE (the faction with no motives left, and barely allowed motives the last two times) have to?
Droite, we discussed that logical error previously. The Night Elves should be able to call on local assistance from the Draenei and the Worgen, and in Ashenvale they should be able to retain a terrain advantage. You’re also on record as saying that the Night Elves should get Ashenvale back, so I’m not sure what the difficulty is.
Now, you’re asking why can’t we start it, and to that I have to answer - I have no problem if we do. That’s in my proposal. A proposal for Warsong Gulch
So I don’t think we’re actually very far apart on this.
Kyalin, I’ve read this, and what every single Horde player agreed to nearly universally on that thread is that you do not provide a motive for the Horde to be in Warsong Gulch. We have no dog in that fight. And you never once tried to adjust or address that lack of sufficient MOTIVE for the Horde in that scenario. Frankly, what it reeks of is you trying to manufacture a situation where the NEs and Alliance are allowed a chance to “get their hits in on the Horde” … but still have the Horde serving as an antagonist. Which they would be if they were still active in Gulch, after all that’s transpired.
This is the primary reason I am frustrated here. Its you, placing the needs and motives of the Horde faction as “optional” … to satisfy your own desire to reassert the NE’s power fantasy. And get your hits in. And vent your grievances. The Horde has no reason to be there anymore if the goal is to finally let us “redeem” or “rebuild” ourselves … but we need to be … otherwise you can’t wail on us.
I don’t feel that many people actually bothered to read the motive presented. But to test that. Without going back to read it, can you repeat for me the one that I came up with? To demonstrate your understanding of what you are objecting to?
Once you do - can you offer some insight as to how it can be beefed up? Something other than “the Horde will never have justification?”
Its going to be very difficult. And speaking from a player of a Faction who was just villain batted mercilessly without any valid motives to explain our aggression … I’m tired of it. You have reasons to want to wail on the Horde as an Alliance and NE player. Even if I were into PvP beyond socially, I have no reasons left to care about wailing on you beyond enjoying the game mechanics itself. Blizz made sure of that by again shaming every Horde player again for being forced to participate in it.
You want the faction conflic/PvP supported on a story level. Then the Alliance needs to stop clutching their pearls of Moral Absolutism and actually just play the aggressors for once. They want to hit the Horde, the Alliance players want to hit the Horde … its time to suck it up and be the aggressive ones. Don’t try to twist the Horde into knots trying to make already absurdly justified antagonism from the Alliance feel more justified. How about your folks break an armistice or peace treaty in the Boy Kings absence? You certainly have enough reasons to. We sure as hell don’t. So just do it already!
I know I’m on the extreme end but I’m so anti-faction war at this point that I’d rather the horde outright cede bordering territory than go back to it for any reason. It’d suck, but it seems like a lesser of two evils to me. And it’s just functionally impossible for me to derive any enjoyment over a plot about fighting against night elves and especially worgen. Just ugh.
Ok, this does not answer my question. I asked you to tell me what you think the motive I gave was, and you punted on doing that. This tells me that you didn’t read the proposal.
So how am I to propose something - something where I feel that the Horde are in their rights - this is them defending their border and their communities after all, they’re not even IN Ashenvale when we’re discussing the Barrens quests or the Warsong Gulch quests - they’d been pushed out - if you aren’t going to take the time to understand what I’m even suggesting?
I’m trying to take your concerns into account, but you have to actually let me take a shot at doing that!