How can we redeem/rebuild the Horde?

i post you the source behind.

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Forgot to include a timestamp; I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say I’m not interested in watching a 22-minute video for a single piece of information.

You can tell it’s Ion like 10 seconds into the video. It’s clearly his voice.

Ok, 10 seconds—that’s a timestamp.

Wasn’t hard.

And just to clarify, I’m not trying to doom and gloom this and suggest there’s nothing we can do to unravel this dumpster fire. The problem is it is really only possible with very drastic measures.

I hate time travel in plots because it’s basically always full of holes. But I don’t have a lot of better options.

They could try to drastically walk back the amount of devastation done in Teldrassil, which basically means the entire founding element of BfA was way overblown and a giant lie, and still leaves the Horde as “attempting” genocide which isn’t much better.

They could let us find out that N’Zoth controlled our minds the entire last expansion as some ridiculous twist. N’Zoth was actually freed by Sargeras’ sword. Every conflict between the factions was actually a conflict between one faction and N’Zoth. Some other off putting explanations for everything else. At least N’Zoth puts up more of a fight than just 8.3 then. At the end Sylvanas saw she was a scapegoat and no one would believe her and she got pissed off and left.

They could portray Sylvanas as having to make a choice between the people of Teldrassil and trillions of other lives that were going to the Maw and therefore she took an irredeemable action in an effort to eventually undermine the Jailer and save the universe. She also couldn’t tell anyone because the Jailer has infiltrated everywhere and holds her soul in the balance. In the end she figures out enough of the Jailers plan to help the scrappy heroes of Azeroth go murder hobo on the Jailer and save the universe. She dies in the process, but the magic of all the thankful super powerful cosmic entities that needed our help somehow revives folks they can still save who were wrongfully sent to the Maw even reviving the victims at Teldrassil. Sylvanas is revived and goes the Illidan route and becomes the keeper and torturer of the Jailer for eternity. Or until she makes a convenient plot device.

I mean honestly, in comparison, is time travel a bridge too far for all of these suggestions.

They could try to drastically walk back the amount of devastation done in Teldrassil, which basically means the entire founding element of BfA was way overblown and a giant lie, and still leaves the Horde as “attempting” genocide which isn’t much better.

I’m going to snip this out - that’s not hard to do - they gave themselves the basis for doing that in Elegy. All they need to do on this point is clarify that it wasn’t as bad as we thought it was. Does it undo the Horde’s issues? No, but it does make the situation somewhat better.

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Okay that’s one.

That’s minus 2.

Who was removed from the Blizzard team and put on Hearthstone exclusively.

Metzen identified with Thrall but mained Alliance, as per the tweets linked earlier (2 of them).

A Male Human Paladin, of all things lmao

That Ion is Gurgthock has been known for a very long time, as far as I’m aware. Elitist Jerks wasn’t just a hardcore guild, but it was also the premiere theorycrafting site in earlier WoW. They actually split off from the guild I’m currently in back in WoW’s original beta.

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Danuser plays a Nightborne Hunter. His twitter banner has Suramar in it.

https://twitter.com/SteveDanuser/status/1143601593419489280

https://twitter.com/SteveDanuser/status/1144459060923625474

Again, playing a character in 2019 is not the same as maining that character lol

(case in point at this self insert)

To be fair, Kyalin, you do kind of give off that impression. Like a while back when you told me that making a storyline where the Alliance feels competent and the Horde doesn’t feel villainized was “the best we could do.”

I believe the terms you’re looking for are “Wolverine” and “Captain America.”

And that philosophy (which was announced back in Cata, IIRC) is what got us to where we are now. :frowning:

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Evidence points to him maining a Nightborne hunter. He tweeted his character and has Suramar as his twitter banner. Him loving Sylvanas and Nathanos(both are Hunters/Rangers) makes him playing an elf hunter make that much more sense.

Yes, it is.

In the end, there are only two (bad) options- the Convoluted Way Out (retcon events to undo/mitigate the Horde’s actions in BFA, several of which you’ve described) and the Lazy Way Out (The Horde Feels Bad and the Alliance just forgives them with a handwave of ‘We’re too weak to actually hold them accountable anyway’ , which is what Blizzard is doing).

You know what? I actually find the Lazy Way Out less stupid than the Convoluted Way Out. They’re still BOTH stupid, and I DO think there has to be at least some action on the part of the Horde to repair damages done beyond saying ‘Oops, my bad, I was tricked!’ Things like using their druids and shaman to undo Darkshore’s damage, and fully withdraw from Ashenvale (again) and Gilneas (
do they even have it still?). Will these things be shown in-game? AHAHAHA of course not! That would require updating the world, and THAT wouldn’t be the Lazy Way Out! They’ll be put in a book! You want to see things actually get better? Your paid subscription isn’t good enough, but you can read about it for only $19.99 on Amazon! $9.99 Kindle edition!

EDIT: Making N’zoth secretly behind everything would have been the smart thing to do, but you see, Blizzard is too smart to do the smart thing! That’s what makes hem smart! And that would have made Sylvanas less important, can’t have THAT. An expansion isn’t just an expansion, it HAS be an incomplete story that leads into the next expansion!

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To be fair, Kyalin, you do kind of give off that impression. Like a while back when you told me that making a storyline where the Alliance feels competent and the Horde doesn’t feel villainized was “the best we could do.”

I’m not quite sure where you’re arguing that this means we can’t rebuild or redeem the Horde in the eyes of its playerbase - unless you’re arguing that faction conflict is just incompatible with that - which I don’t agree with either.

We do have some limits, of course - but that doesn’t mean I agree with Droite’s idea that there’s literally no way to make the Horde feel good about itself.

have you a source, that he ÂŽs maining alliance?

None, but you’ve only presented two cases of a confirmed Horde main (Ion and Kosak), latter of which is no longer part of the game team. So of three confirmed (Ion, Kosak, Afrasiabi), two are gone from WoW.

The question was, “How many Blizzard executives have stated, openly and proudly, they main Horde?” The question was not, “how many execs main each faction”.

Posting a Nightborne circa 2019 is not confirmation of maining.

Those figures may be gone, but that doesn’t mean we’re not still feeling their impact. Kosak’s “Hero Factory” model again is something that directly carried into BFA, and if they’re serious about planning expansions out 2 years in advance, that puts him in the Lead Narrative Designer chair for that.

You know what using retcons/time travel to undo BFA reminds me of? Spider-Man: One More Day.

So, Marvel had a stupid story that had a lot of shock value but very poorly-thought out consequences called Civil War in the works, and one of the poorly-though out stupid shock value moments was Spider-Man publicly revealing his identity. As a result, Aunt May eats a sniper’s bullet and is dying. Spider-Man goes to every super scientist and wizard in the world asking for them to save her. But they can’t because
 that’s not the story the writers wanted to tell. No, the guys who are literally more powerful than some gods can’t help a bullet wound! So, Peter makes a deal with the Devil to save Aunt May in exchanged for his marriage to MJ being retconned away! Because
 because the people in charge didn’t like the fact that Spider-Man was married and wanted to make him single again, just like he was when they had started reading Spider-Man comics. And it was all very stupid, because that was decades ago and the fans they were trying to sell their product to had moved on and accepted MJ as part of the story.

A few years later they tried to help justify One More Day by writings One Moment In Time, explaining exactly how things had happened differently that resulted in Peter and MJ not actually getting married. And it too was very stupid. Peter was late for his wedding because a fat man fell on him and knocked him out for hours. Peter, who can lift train engines and get hit by the Hulk. And when he came to and realized he’d missed his wedding, did he decide to just re-schedule it? No, because the people in charge didn’t want him to BE married, because
 oh, and he and MJ still lived together all that time they just weren’t MARRIED because
 oh
 and
 because
 uh
 things
 uh weren’t changed but they were so that uh


I quit reading Spider-Man comics for a decade.

BFA is a VERY stupid story, done by people who had stupid reasons to do it. It is all horribly contrived, but trying to deal with it in an equally; or worse; MORE contrived manner, EVEN IN A FANTASTIC SETTING, will only raise more questions and reveal more logical holes. Piling more #### upon a big pile of #### doesn’t make the original pile go away, it only makes it bigger. If you try to touch the big pile of #### you’re just going to get #### on your fingers.

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To be fair, we don’t know what most of them play.

We only know about Golden because of the white-haired Selfinsert in her books, that she plays a white-haired Human Mage.

Metzen said something about it in the past, but most of them, we have no idea. the new lead quest designer play horde too. he said something about it on twitter

https://twitter.com/TerranGregory/status/1359585863605211137

Thrall gets an exclusive Table discussion, so, its again a horde char in focus :wink: on blizzcon.

I don’t recall an Alliance character ever getting an exclusive table round, not one. So, we should definitely rethink this “Blizzard hates us” thing.

And when he came to and realized he’d missed his wedding, did he decide to just re-schedule it? No, because the people in charge didn’t want him to BE married

Kind of a tangent, but speaking as someone who did have to reschedule a wedding because of unforeseen events
 it’s not anywhere as trivial as you’re putting it here. “Just reschedule it” is a logical answer, sure, but it’s still an emotional and financial gutpunch. If I were MJ in that situation, I’d feel like I was being left at the altar - that’s not something that you just get over.