Problem is, in a lot of people’s eyes, that includes the PC.
And some Sylvanas loyalists are definitely PCs.
1 Like
But that doesn’t redeem the Horde. Making the Alliance worse does not make the Horde better. Nor does it atone for their wrongs. It doesn’t even move the needle towards redemption.
No it doesn’t. It still leaves the Horde at 10. Sure, it makes it closer to the Alliance. But it doesn’t make it better at all.
The Horde needs to be better. The Alliance becoming worse doesn’t do that.
No, you suggested that Blizzard do it.
I actually don’t think it is. It is just not presented as a a shameless villain. And it seems that is the only way some people will be happy. Case in point:
Not at all true. The Alliance doesn’t need to sink to the Horde’s level to make the world okay. Even in Vanilla the Horde had FAR more sins than the Alliance. But that didn’t make the world all lopsided. The Horde needs to be better, but there is no reason both factions have to be morally equal.
There is no world were that makes sense. As angry as Tyrande might get for the Alliance not acting fast or forcefully enough at Darkshore they would still NEVER join those that slaughtered her people. It was not just Sylvanas marching through Ashenvale and Darkshore. Sylvanas may have given the orders to burn the tree, but it was not her that did it. The Night Elves joining the Horde would be several orders of magnitude worse story telling than anything Blizzard has done…and they have had some really dumb story choices.
They didn’t do it themselves. Sure, there aren’t a lot of big names. But there are ways they could show in game that actions were being taken to clean up the Horde army. Things like NPCs talking about leaders in the army being thrown out for the part they played. Discussions of investigations into those that remained with Sylvanas. Etc, etc. Basically they could show the Horde was trying to purge it’s leadership of any who would take part in anything like that.
2 Likes
That’s part of the reason I doubt Blizzard will do anything about it. It would require them to retcon the Champion of Azeroth out of the WoT and all of their loyalist quests. Like I said, I know Blizzard will put all responsibility on Sylvanas and ignore the rest of the Horde’s involvement.
Of course they will.
Because at the end of the day, this is still very much a game where lore is determined by…well, major lore NPCs.
We players?
We’re the random units they order around, like the Footman, Grunt, Ghoul, and Archer from Reign of Chaos.
1 Like
The Horde coming up and the Alliance coming down can happen at the same time. I never once suggested that the Horde remain where it is.
Well, yeah. They control the story. And they had opportunities to bring the Alliance down but they never commit and always walk it back.
4 Likes
So, yeah. You’re like every other Alliance player who has enough self awareness to know that they can’t destroy the Horde faction mechanically, so you want to just destroy it narratively. With how truly Hero driven this game is, if your race does not have strong representation your race might as well not even exist. And the Horde is already scraping the bottom of the barrel for most of its races. So, some Alliance players do realize on some level that if they purge the remaining few of note “for justice and redemption” … they’re essentially rendering the Horde faction inert for all future stories.
Its essentially way for Alliance players to “get the Horde out of THEIR story and THEIR game” while trying to come off as less dickish than if they said “I can only get over BfA if I destroy the entire Horde player faction”.
10 Likes
“Something need doing?”
“Okie dokie.”
You miss the point. The Alliance getting worse in no way makes the Horde better.
Again, you miss the point. Your argument is the Alliance is better than the Horde, so the Alliance needs to be made worse so the Horde doesn’t seem as bad by comparison. But, making the Alliance worse, ‘pulling a Tonya Harding,’ to bring it down to the Horde’s level does not actually make the Horde better.
Not even remotely. I actually suggested they make it better narratively. Show that they are something better.
I actually suggested commentary about non-named people. Just something informing the player that off screen there were generals, captains, etc that were removed because of their bloodlust.
That kind of comment proves you came in and with an opinion before actually reading what was said.
2 Likes
"Me not that kind of orc!"
2 Likes
No, my argument is that the Alliance is (morally) better than the Horde and the Horde will never be able to bring itself up to the same level of moral absolutism as the Alliance as long as the Alliance maintains the moral absolutism.
Again, bad analogy. Because, again, pulling a Tanya Harding would mean that the Horde itself would have to bring the Alliance down a peg. Which it can’t do.
I’m suggesting Blizzard write the Alliance more realistically and create internal conflict for the Alliance like they keep doing to the Horde. Them coming down a peg would be their own doing.
9 Likes
You specifically said “purge of leadership”. There is no “leadership” left beyond what we have. Truly, do Alliance players not realize how absolutely destitute the Horde player faction is in terms of characters?
After two rounds of villain batting and over a decade of DEEP neglect, there is NOBODY left. The Forsaken have it worst, with Voss and Calia being forced into their current roles (and Voss being portrayed as just a steward for Mommy Menethil). The Darkspear ONLY have Rokhan left, and it took Blizz 4 years to finally make him leader. Even the friggen Orcs of the friggen Horde would be rendered with Eitrigg and Cromush left as their most developed reps if not for Thrall and (I think) Rexxar coming back.
It is going to take a monumental amount of work to even get these characters (let alone our AR leads and Gazlowe) to positions of being anything but B-Rank at best. And that group also needs a ton of work. We have no one left, and manufacturing a bunch of no named leaders out of nowhere to punish will satisfy noone. The Horde situation is so bad that I am not even willing to even consider handing over Belmont in such a situation. The Forsaken are far too broken now to even consider that.
10 Likes
I quite enjoy how the majority of the topic of “redeeming the Horde” turned into “villain bat the Alliance so Horde doesn’t look that bad”, this point 6 of my post.
Say whinging my friends.
2 Likes
Ignoring that the Alliance is not the moral absolutism…
The Alliance moral standing does not change the Horde’s moral standing in any way, shape or form. It has zero barring on the Horde’s redemption.
After I said: "But there are ways they could show in game that actions were being taken to clean up the Horde army. "
Context is key. Horde army leadership would not be the faction/race leaders. It would basically be unnamed background characters.
I am starting to think some of it is people wanting the villain Horde, but not wanting to look like that is what they want. So, the ‘make everyone a villain and it is okay’ mindset has taken over.
2 Likes
Its not so much about wanting the Horde to remain villianous, its about recognizing that as long as the Alliance retains their absurd Moral Absolutism (that far too much of its playerbase revels in) there is no real opportunity for the Horde to prove they’re moral themselves. The untouchable nature of the Alliance has grown so absurd, and they’ve become so much the “paragons of every virtue every conceived”, that the only virtue a Horde character is even allowed anymore is how pro-Alliance they are. We’re “moral” so long as we are submissive and convenient for the Alliance and their stories; because they are morality itself.
Like it or not, but the artificially pristine, flawless Blue Faction is one of the largest detriments to the writing philosophy of current WoW. Because SOMEONE has to have flaws, and since the Horde is allowed them … those flaws become all that more pronounced because they’re forced to shoulder them alone.
10 Likes
What level are you talking about? In my opinion, they should meet in the middle.
It had a dark past that wasn’t in the playable game and in some cases was perpetrated by the previous generation. But apart from the Forsaken (who were off in their own little corner), the Horde didn’t really “sin” in playable quests. Also, the Alliance had nasty problems as well; they were just better hidden. I personally found something liberating about having the worst be known and not having to try to hide or deny it.
I’m afraid we’re just going to have to agree to disagree on that point. Unless the factions are morally equal, the game will never be satisfying.
4 Likes
Except, in WoW, the Alliance maintains moral absolutism.
Relative to each other they do. Because, again 
The Horde can do all the redeeming you can think of involving lost souls, orphans, puppies or whatever. But at the end of the day the Alliance will still maintain the moral superiority because of the actions the Horde has already taken. They will always be beneath the Alliance when it comes to morality.
And, no, I’m not suggesting the Alliance get the same villain bat treatment that the Horde had received several times now.
9 Likes
This exchange is making me think that I don’t believe Alliance players truly understand the wholesale lack of motivation for Horde players - not even just in theoretical faction conflict, but just in general. It’s hard to root for your faction when it’s stuck so far down in the mud, especially when you have someone in pristine white clothing standing atop a tall, slippery riverbank and making flippant comments like “Just work to better yourself.”
In other words: Yes, it absolutely does matter if the Alliance stares down at the Horde from its ivory tower of perfection, or if both sides are wading through the muck in different directions.
21 Likes
Easy. Let the elves keep leading. Lor’themar and Thalyssra will turn the Horde into something civilized and not barbaric and bloodthirsty. It’s possible to be tribal without being a monster.
For further evidence, see: "How the Horde’s first two wars with humanity resulted in the orcs being thrown into internment camps by the oh-so virtuous bureaucra—err, sorry, “very virtuous humans” they victimized.
Also known as Lord of the Clans, Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos, and Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne.
The whole point of redemption and forgiveness is that you’re not holding a person’s past sins over their head for all eternity (like Daelin Proudmoore did). You make them work for it, sure, but the whole problem with moral superiority and self-righteousness is that it creates a Catch-22 by nature: you claim to want your oppressors to change their ways and earn forgiveness, but because you’re the only one capable of granting forgiveness, you have to also believe them capable of earning it to begin with.
6 Likes
Which the horde, storywise up to BfA, ironically proved unwilling to do. It took yet ANOTHER genocide for them to realize that maybe having a Warchief that speaks for everyone is a terrible idea.
The problem is, again from strictly a story perspective, the alliance has ZERO reason to ever believe the horde is going to change. We’re sorry or We’re different this time looses it’s meaning after the other side continues to revert to being genocidal maniacs every two years