Baals point, I believe is it comes off as being really tone deaf when you implement real life Lwa into the game, and than proceed to villian bat and kill them off left and right. It’s sheer ignorance and borderline racist really
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This especially; if they’re aware enough of non-Western cultures to implement them into the game especially, the least they could do is present them as being less one-dimensional.
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Nah also symbols of medicine, what with the Staff of Asclepius being the universal symbol for medicine in the West and Western-Neocolonies (e.g. Latin America).
We just “forget” about those.
Nah geneaology there is:
- Jewish Deuteronomy, Isaiah, Leviticus and Psalms in Hebrew/Aramaic mention “Shedim” and “Seirim” that people sacrificed to (hairy spirits in Jewish folklore)
- Hellenic Jews and Early Christians translated that to “Daimones” and “Satyr” respectively
- Roman Christians translated both to “Daimones”
- English turned that to Demons, of which Satan is a type
And thus Satan become a Satyr.
But the sad thing is, the Damballah lore we do have in-game is cool! He’s basically one of the founding Loa of all Troll Shadow Hunters, and all Shadow Hunters depend on him for their powers. He’s the Shadowhunter equivalent of what Gonk is to Troll Druids, or Rezan is to Troll Paladins/Priests.
But no. He’s actually a Big Mean Snake serving Evil Mueh’zala and we must Perma-Kill him.
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Not sure what you are trying to suggest here. My argument is that with Bwom connection to the Darkspear and Vol’jin specifically he would have been able to and would have used them to push a far more into helping Sylvanas. It would not have just been a whisper. The whole unknown whisperer would have had less impact than Bwom whispering. Hence it would not made narrative sense for Bwom to have been behind it.
As to the timing. Sure, the whisper was likely planned to have been the Jailor or some minion of his. Or maybe they didn’t even intend to answer who said it. Changing it to Meuh’zala to add that aspect of Bwom to the story was probably behind that.
But again, that timing doesn’t suggest Bwom was going to be a villain in any way.
A lot of things ‘could happen.’ It doesn’t mean they make sense. And honestly, Bwom being behind the whisper really doesn’t. There are really just two many reasons that point to someone else.
Most of the Loa in game are pretty cool honestly. It just blizz always pulls this But tHey we’re secretly super evil, bet you didn’t see that coming! HAHAHAH!! and it’s sad.
I don’t even know if it’s intentional, but they treat a lot of cultures, both white and POC with a very callous disregard. I suppose that’s partly due to how Tolkien and others like Lovecraft set the standard for story telling in the early 1900s. I’m no expert though, so someone correct me if I’m wrong.
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Back on the topic at hand. Personally, if Blizz wants to prove to me that they are willing to put in the work to try to rebuild and redeem my Faction, then the only thing I can think of within SLs is for Thrall, Baine, and Vol’jin to all have character arcs that provide development and growth; with tangible rewards and outcomes by the end of this expansion. Including power ups that appropriately reflect that growth.
Thus, Vol’jin must emerge in his new Loa form and do something tangible by the end of SLs. And must follow the path his father envisioned for him using that new state of being. Thrall must make that new figure of him a tangible reality. Not the Warchief part, but what that figure thematically represents. The combination of the best parts of his past selves, and a Orcish Chieften who takes pride in who and what he was born to be. Finally, Baine (the Best and Heart of the Horde) must be allowed a individual character arc of his own to allow him to achieve his Father’s balance. One that is independent of both his relationship with Anduin AND his traditional role as a Token Good Horde (a role that should never be needed again if Blizz is serious about redeeming us). Hopefully concluding with some new spiritual boost for Baine. Baine needs to prove why and how he is capable of being our Heart and our Best.
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Nah Tolkien didn’t really borrow myths from other subaltern cultures.
He explicitly created his universe to be an aggressively English (read: combining Irish, Celtic, Scottish, German, etc based mythologies) mythos constructed within a Catholic hermeneutic (original sin, Heaven, Morgoth as Satan, etc) while also indulging in some of his personal sociopolitical beliefs (Industrialization Bad, Village Life is the apex of goodness).
The worst he did was the “Orcs are Mongols and Dwarves are Jews and all the Bad Evil Humans are from the East and South and have Dark Skin” which he aggressively later regretted.
(and lucky don’t feature much in any of the stories, at all, literally unseen lmao)
100%.
And that includes developing an ideally Solar-based “mysterious supreme being” for the Horde. Which, while it’s much too late for the playerbase to develop an attachment to such a being (An’she, Belore, have them be the same force, whatever), it at least provides with “Aha! Horde also has a mysterious cosmic super power that is worshipped on multiple planets!”
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See, this would actually make sense, tying in things like Kael’thas’ pet phoenix Al’ar and those revered by the Sin’dorei along with An’she, maybe even have it be revealed that “blood elf phoenixes are descended from An’she/Belore.”
It’s practically already written anyway with Night Elves and Elune/Moon Worship vs. the Blood Elves and Sunwell/Sun Worship.
EDIT: Also, considering the Tauren believe Elune and An’she (Moon and Sun) are the two “eyes” of the “Earth Mother” (Azeroth?), it could also provide a bonding moment for certain Alliance and Horde races to let us get back into the whole “Azeroth is a Titan” plotline with Magni.
You know, the one that was literally left hanging without any real resolution whatsoever.
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I don’t know, it always seems a bit like jealousy to me. Because the Alliance has Elune…the Horde must also have the same only in different! Because…the exact same MUST be! yeah, no…not really. It may just be my opinion on it, but I find always giving the same to each side just makes it boring.
The horde need their own mysterious, not a elune 2.0
I actually agree. The Horde comprises the only cultures that tangibly revere the Sun. This is more of a tangible thing for the Tauren, but it would be neat to see it expanded more for the BEs. In that the Sun is the greatest source of Light for Azeroth, and further expansion of that for the Horde elves could differentiate them a bit more from the Alliance Pali and Priest branches. Plus, we know next to nothing about the Sun as a celestial body. Outside of that. I think that if we truly are going to attempt to “redeem” the Horde in its current state, we REALLY need to get it back to basics.
And that means building a foundation and pillars…
Thematically, despite how flawed he was, Saurfang’s death does conceptually work better as a foundation for the Horde to move on from than either Doomhammer or Grom. Since Saurfang’s dying wish was NOT to try to redeem himself from past mistakes (he admitted he never could), but like a deeply flawed father he merely wanted his “kids” to have an opportunity to the honor he truly felt he and his generation were not worthy of by the end. Both Grom and Doomhammer died attempting to atone for their crimes, Varok died simply wanting a better life then he led for the Horde. Its subtle, but its a far more powerful “foundation” to build off of than the prior two. Its very paternal, and very primal.
From here, we need Pillars. And Thrall, Vol’jin, and Baine seem like the most likely subjects. These three need to be built into the leaders their people need them to be by the time the return from the Land of the dead, so they can serve as infrastructure to build the rest of the cast off of. Calia can get some growth on this too, but I am strongly of the mind that if she is to be A leader of the Forsaken she needs to: Have a reason for a healthy distance from the Alliance; and have a counterbalance like Voss appropriately built up as her Equal. To provide two leaders that service the entire spectrum of the Forsaken/Citizen of Lordaeron identity and care for their futures. Allowing long overdue Horde integration.
IF we can get this … we might have a chance of building us up again when we head back. But we gotta have these structural roots created to build off of.
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Literally it’s so easy:
- Blood Elf Belore: has never been explained, is tied to the Sunwell, is gestured at in various voice over lines, the Blood Elf Priests in the Class Order Hall are “Sun Priests” etc. Just need Liadrin and Rommath getting “visions” from the Sunwell, reveal A’lar is a blessing from Belore
- Tauren An’she: has literally divinely intervened in both the Highmountain Mythos in the fields of An’she, is tied to Tauren Shamanism (the one who taught them to Spirit Walk), is considered the brother of Elune/Musha, is the source of Tauren Paladin Sun-based Light.
- Trolls: Sun motifs all over Dazaralor and Ataldazar, Rezan’s Loa of a Tale tablet states he has “the power of the sun”, the “hand of valor” that nobody knows what it is that pulled Vol’jin out of the Maw and empowered him hasn’t been explained yet.
- Orcs: While the Shadowmoon Clan is also probably going to be revealed to be Elune, they could tie Orcish Shamanism with regards to the elements to such a being.
Just have An’she Belore be a thing and that’s it, we’re good to go.
If one faction has a MOON BASED GODDESS and this game is based upon two opposing equal factions, the literal only motif possible is a SOLAR BASED GOD lmao
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No, it isn’t. Instead of another stellar deity, why not a deity that embodies something completely different from stellar things? A deity of free will, of hope, I don’t know, things like that? a carboncopy of elune would be boring…and this being would forever be framed as that…only a carboncopy.
What is the sun.
Quickly.
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re: Calia, my take from long ago:
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Admittedly I don’t think I’d ever have any personal attachment to An’she as a concept but no, that seems pretty crappy to give reverence of one of two major celestial bodies to one race (to which its associated faction can associate with through shared content) but deny the use of the other because “it’s just a carboncopy.”
An’she’s something that was brought up in concept as early in vanilla WoW; it was just sadly never expanded on. Even if it’s way later than it deserved, I think it makes more sense to start diving into that instead of slushing together some never-before-associated deity just for Blizzard to point to the horde and shout “Identify with it!”
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Who says its a Carbon Copy though? Baal is right. Solar imagery and Sun reverence is all over various Horde cultural practices. The Tauren, BEs, Trolls, and even Orcs and Vulpera could be tied into it fairly easily. There is nothing saying that it as a being needs to operate in the same way Elune does; just that it is a stellar symbol for that sort of “worship” (even if not outright religious worship). There is also no saying what such an entity would be like in tone, function, or temperament.
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For sake of argument, what would be different between Elune and An’she then? Aside from comsic make up?
A different temperament? Maybe An’she is actually around? Something like that?
I can understand the reasoning behind a Sun Elune, but I also understand why someone would desire to not have it just be well…Sun Elune.
This might seem like a cop-out answer due to my own ignorance of the subject, and I’m not a writer so that’s twice the helping of worthlessness on my part, but:
I wouldn’t try to design the concept of An’she around being the temperamental opposite of Elune at all. I’d try to look into what Native American, Mayan, and Persian (Blood elves, right?) mythology and history had to say on the subject, and maybe try to conglomerate common themes from them. If part of those aspects share a relation to Elune, then so be it. Because I think going into it with the objective of making it an anti-Elune just dooms it to be defined by the night elf religion anyway.
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Different methods of communication. Different method of interacting with those that show it reverence. Different proficiencies in power and domain. A different temperament, and even perhaps children of their own that embody such a being. Hell, make the thing lively, passionate, sometimes destructively so. The Sun is life, it can also kill you. Make it a bit rough around the edges.
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I like how Droite and I gave completely opposite responses, lol
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