How Can We Redeem/Rebuild The Horde (Actual Horde Edition)

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Gantrithor-myzrael

Still working on it.

So eta?

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

Phase 1 of my NCOES ends Sunday, but my assignments are in now so I should be able to get more done tomorrow.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

Just don’t forget to let us know good luck on your assignments

[Avetra-lightbringer]

Oh you are in the Army? I’m about to retire from the Air Force.

Good luck in your course. Are you taking it online?

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

good luck on your assignments

Thanks!

@Avetra-lightbringer

Are you taking it online?

Yes. The first phase is all distance learning. Not sure if the rest of the course will be online or in person yet.

[Avetra-lightbringer]

I had to do SNCOA online. It was still a great course but not quite the same as going in person.

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

Added some more.

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

Besides some minor adjustments all I have left to add is the secondary character development proposal and the story proposal I feel will help build Horde pride/identity without taking anything from or needing the Alliance.

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

@Gantrithor-myzrael

SITUATION

Of the seven (7) core races (4 primary, 3 added with expansions) only two (2)* are currently led by the character that they were introduced in WoW with (Blood elf and Pandaren). Three (3) including Thrall, though he left the Horde for a time (pre-cata through post-BFA) before recently returning as the Orc racial leader.

The Horde has lost eight (8) racial leaders to death, villain-batting or both.

Hadn’t sat down and tallied up these numbers, but damn.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

PROPOSAL

A) Building Racial Leaders
Racial leader has become synonymous with Horde Council member. In contrast to the iconic Warchief position which, historically, became a single point of failure, each member race appears to have equal say in the operations of the Horde as a political/military entity.

This, on paper, looks like a good idea. However, the strength of the council is limited by those of its representatives. For example:

Thrall: Reluctant to be in a leadership position again, but has a robust background and strong ties to orc shamanism.

Baine: Needs a LOT of work to lose his Alliance-lover image.

Roh’Khan: heresy incoming Should get more focus than Vol’Jin since Vol’Jin is, apparently, ascending to the rank of Loa.

Voss: Must take the Forsaken leadership position seriously. But, more heresy because Calia appears to be an advisor this can be expanded easily.

With that in mind (yes,I know there are other races and allowed races but I’m only using the above as an example) Here is the proposal for racial leaders.

Agreed all around on principle.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

• Make each racial leader position within the Horde council two seats. That is: each race has 2 leaders representing them similar to the American Senate. This will require building both the current (more well-known) representative and, likely, build up a secondary character that has been neglected.
• The second racial leader (council member) must NOT be a yes-man to the first or a mirror image. We don’t need 2 Baines representing the Tauren. The second representative should be as close to an opposite of the first as is narratively possible without causing outright hostility, though the internal politics could lead to some spicy (There I said it, Baal!) development.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

–OR–

A bit more aggressive in change would be for each race to have a delegation varying in size based on its constituents. This would require rolling most of the Allied Races into the primary race delegations as well as adding offshoots of each race that were formerly neutral, hostile or otherwise.

Also agreed wholeheartedly on general principle with either option.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

Orcs: Having them move away from a collection of disparate Warrior tribes to a more shamanistic race with varying tribal traditions (actually showing the difference between Frostwolf and Shadowmoon, etc.)

100% this, one of the biggest “restraints” to Horde factional development is that the Human Kingdoms and other races (Gnomes vs Mechagnomes, various Kaldorei subgroups etc) each retain their individual group identity while being part of a larger body in turn part of a cloation.

MU Orcs were narratively “stripped” of identity, but the “Former” Shadowmoon were sent to the Cleft of Shadow

@Gantrithor-myzrael

• Trolls: Uniting the tribes would be a monumental task in and of itself. Certain tribes have been enemies for long time and seeking that tension wouldn’t, and shouldn’t, be accomplished overnight.

I think the biggest tool here could be “enemy of my enemy is my friend”. What remains of the Amani are dangerously close to numerous Alliance settlements after all.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

• Tauren: Rogues (!)

lol

@Gantrithor-myzrael

• Tauren: Building on their worship of the Earth Mother and An’she and possibly creating some tension regarding spirituality in tauren society.
• Tauren: Reconnecting with the Yaungol and Taunka.

Big mood, in general fleshing out the “Sun worship” across Azeroth is necessary at this point. Taunka integration is necessary too, but Yaungol I have doubts.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

• Forsaken: Having additional undead races and everything that goes with it. This can create some internal tension if other races (for example, Blood Elves) feel that undead Blood Elves should be integrated with the rest of the Blood Elves or with the Forsaken.
• Forsaken: Can they be more than mindless, undead killing machines? Yes. It can be shown in the same way as other races.

Plus the diversification of Forsaken settlements. Have Ghostlands be populated by Undead Elves, have Nazmir be populated by Undead Trolls, have Other Undead Humans and Undead Gnomes etc go to Lordaeron.

All part of the Forsaken.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

• Blood Elves vs Forsaken: Do the San’layn represent the elves or the undead?

To note: not a sanlayn but Velonara identifies as both Sin’dorei and Forsaken.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

I’m sure there are plenty of other examples of developing the Horde from within WITHOUT RESORTING TO CIVIL WAR!!.

Ye.

@Gantrithor-myzrael

PROPOSAL

• Stop giving 3rd party/Neutral characters the KB on bad guys when it would be more appropriate for a faction character to get it. For example, Malfurion getting the KB on Fandral.
• Story threads should be taken to their logical conclusion with the appropriate entities having agency in working towards that conclusion. For example, Sylvanas being present for the downfall of the Lich King or relevant Horde characters being present when taking down the Burning Legion.
• Do NOT fix (big) problems for a faction using characters from the opposing faction. We saw this with the cleansing of The Sunwell and it isn’t reciprocated. The Blood Elves literally owe their sanity to the leader of the Draenai.
• If a story thread is created that logically only involves 1 faction, do NOT try to shoehorn the other faction into it. Do NOT ignore the other faction either, create a different story thread for that faction. this will be expanded on in a hypothetical at the end of this section

Yes.

[Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood (Ainhin)]

@Baalsamael-turalyon

ave Other Undead Humans and Undead Gnomes etc go to Lordaeron.

This is poaching from the Alliance and it’s easily the worst part of the Forsaken as they stand now. I also hate the implicit situation we’re in now where if someone from the Alliance is killed and raised into undeath they apparently automatically join Red Team.

Besides, the Forsaken don’t control Lordaeron right now so this premise will require the Alliance giving up territory to the Horde.

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

I thought technically neither of the factions control Lordaeron as of that EK book? If so, the alliance doesn’t have territory there to lose.

[Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood (Ainhin)]

If you mean the city or Tirisfal, nobody controls it, but the Alliance controls pretty much the entire periphery.

I mean, I have no doubt the Alliance is going to let the Forsaken return in some capacity but the suggestion is still one that necessarily involves the Alliance in some way.

Of course, that’s the Forsaken’s fundamental problem as an independent narrative force. Their whole conceptual basis as an undead army is based on poaching from the Alliance because that’s what makes undead armies notable and scary; the fact that they take your friends and family and turn them against you.

Maybe they could get around this if they started to raise primarily dead Horde instead of dead Alliance. Let the Horde be the ones making the sacrifices to sustain the Forsaken’s existence, not the Alliance.

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

@Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood

I also hate the implicit situation we’re in now where if someone from the Alliance is killed and raised into undeath they apparently automatically join Red Team.

I thought about this as well. If someone dies and is raised into undeath (willingly or otherwise) should they be considered Forsaken or be allowed to remain with their primary race?

If the former, like you said, it would come across as poaching especially if it’s a notable character. If the latter will people demand undead versions of every race that is still a member of their main race and retains their in-game stats and abilities?

Perhaps the best solution is to integrate those undead into 3rd party factions like the AD, KotEB or (my suggestion) the Delegation of Undead Deviant Survivors (DUDS).

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

I think post Shadowlands, all Undead should be people the Arbiter condemned to the Maw or Revendreth, and WoW metaphysics should be that the Arbiter counts your undeath into her judgment.

Basically a zombie do-over to escape Hell or Purgatory (or at least reduce Purgatory).

“But what about how the Undead don’t have memories of the Shadowlands”

Ah but that was just Scourge Undead. True Maldraxxus OG Necromancy allows memory retention. Just write it so.

[Bubblies-deviate-delight]

The actual answer to this is to hire the writers who write for Hearthstone and things like Forged In The Barrens back onto the WoW team to write for the Horde.

It’s quite clear they have a better understanding of what it means to be Horde than the current team does.

[Skarm-sentinels (Skarm)]

I’m imagining that the main Horde writer is actually a schizophrenic man whose two personalities are in constant conflict because one is a fan of the WC1-2 Horde and the other is a fan of the WC3 Horde and they get into arguments like Gollum and Smeagol. (“Horde burns down cities, Horde rips up nature! Horde is wicked, tricksy, false! Horde destroys and laughs at destroying!” “No, not Horde! Horde was tricked, Horde learned from mistakes, Horde only wants to make up for what Horde did wrong and be allowed by Alliance place to live in world!” “Alliance hates Horde, Horde deserves hatred! Why try to be good when Horde can never be good enough? Horde should just kill stupid Alliance and laugh at killing!”)

[Gantrithor-myzrael]

Working on the hypothetical at the moment.

COVID related tasks have taken up more of my time than I care to acknowledge.

Soon…

[Karestae-moon-guard]

Best of luck with everything friend

[Mawthorne-lightninghoof]

Tess and Lorna need to elope. Jussayin’.

[Mawthorne-lightninghoof]

@Ainhin-thorium-brotherhood

I mean, I have no doubt the Alliance is going to let the Forsaken return in some capacity but the suggestion is still one that necessarily involves the Alliance in some way.

I really think that isnt the case. The Alliance won Undercity, but also lost Undercity to the blight.

What I predict for 10.0 prepatch is something along the lines of Scarlet whatever they want to call themselves Radicals filled the power vacuum and fought off the scourge in Tirisfal, Silverpine, Hillsbrad, and parts of the plaguelands. There is no effective location for horde or alliance forces to fight the Scarlet forces who want to turn the Eastern Kingdoms into Third Reich Germany. Lillian Voss tells the alliance that they have the antidote to the blight used in Gilneas and Lordearon, and are willing to share it in return for being allowed to return to undercity, and Calia advocates for the Forsaken position. The Prepatch event will be retaking UC for the horde, and retaking Gilneas for the Alliance.