How Can We Redeem/Rebuild The Horde (Actual Horde Edition)

Lore Story Forum
4775

Given the current leveling design, you’re correct in stating lore status does not have to impact questing and there are opportunities abound. I’m not denying that. We can Chromie to any expansion to do our questing all the same. So mechanically there technically is not a need to allow for ‘fair’ questing. However, the base/core continents are at this point in a state of Cataclysm and have been for 10 years. Im working off the presumption that these developments would replace that experienced world, go beyond story advancement with nothing to show for it. I feel as if this has been the presumption of this entire thread. To update and experience the world in conjunction with the story.

However, if we are updating the world with content then what is there to do for the Horde players specifically in Nothern Kalimdor? Do we just take seven zones away from them as players? Beyond narrative advancement a lot of us would like to right the wrongs of development from Classic, which is what Cata attempted to do. Successfully or not is a different argument. Pretty clear I don’t think it did, giving us exclusive but not faction zones like Hillsbrad, Duskwood, Redridge, and Wetlands. Even took away half of the Barrens from the Horde to provide Alliance narrative and questing. Im not suggesting or even requesting that there be a Horde presence in these zones, but to at least allow the stories to be available. Why remove 1/3 of a continents content for one faction?

But you raise a question about neutral or 3rd party organizations. What is their role in Azeroth’s politics? Do they have a duty to defend particular lands or to intervene? Sure there are individuals on both sides who’s allegiance is to their faction/people before the order and may leave when push comes to shove but on an organizational scale, what is their role? I’d argue that they remain neutral. Wary perhaps, and that can be the a point of development.

You make the argument that it took Derrek for Baine to do something, but Baine is not the Horde Arch-Druid in the organization. Hammul is, and Hamuul did nothing for the war, instead staying in Sillithus and trying to heal the world. That is who you make the argument for. What Malfurion, thankfully, didn’t do is pull a Jaina and take the whole Cenarian Circle against the Horde like the Kirin Tor. There is still room in the organization for it to be a force of cooperation.

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4776

Perhaps on some fronts yes, but unless we address this proximity issue with the Horde faction capitol being /right there/ it is just going to keep happening over and over again every time the (real or imagined) fear of an attack grows.

Do you have a better idea to deescalate tension in the region than a DMZ?

4777

There are two issues I have with the proximity question.

  1. After Teldrassil, I consider it moot. Nothing is too far away from the Horde for people to also consider it “too close”, and it’s a one-sided concern.
  2. Again, there are two massive geographical borders that preclude a direct overland route from Ashenvale to Orgrimmar and vice versa. The “As the crow flies” distance is meaningless when you still have to march an army to the Mor’shan Rampart to access Ashenvale due to the impassibility of the mountain range.

(Also no, Zeppelins and airpower do not change the conversation here. In the modern world, such considerations still matter. They would absolutely matter in a pre-industrial/industrial setting)

I’m not saying that we have to - I’m simply speaking of which nations control what. There are other avenues for questing, although that being said, I’m in favor as well of the Forsaken having exclusive control of a similar sized landmass. As far as questing is concerned, however, a hub does not have to have a large geographic footprint. There are many possibilities that we could go over, too many to really list here, but not all of them require the continued Horde presence in Ashenvale as we have known it.

As for Neutral organizations, frankly, I think groups like the Cenarion Circle or the Argent Crusade have, by way of their neutrality, lost a lot of their legitimacy. I could see Night Elf and Tauren druids still meeting for example, but after the War of the Thorns, I also see a lot less of that, and a lot less of the quasi-territorial administration that we knew them for. On the other side of the coin, again from a more meta perspective, Horde players in my experience have been quick to point out that neutral organizations are typically “Alliance adjacent”, and are used for vehicles to subject Horde players to Alliance characters and themes, which I reject as well because I feel like those things are being poached. If we simply must have neutral organizations, then we should have new ones that reflect the changes the world has been through, that are limited in scope, and that give the Horde more opportunities for representation in them.

As for this, my point is that the Tauren as far as the politics were concerned were mostly just fine, as shown through their leadership - the “heart of the Horde” - with what happened at Teldrassil. The idea that the special relationship between the Night Elves and the Tauren can survive that is something that I just don’t see as credible outside, again, of a few outliers.

4778

In terms of territories, I still the best answer is the easiest one. That really only has one problem on EK to really deal with, so long as Calia enforces her claim for the Forsaken. Just establish more solid 1/3-2/3rds rules for both continents. On Kali, the NEs firmly hold Ashenvale and everything North. Building a full on Feathermoon-esk stronghold where the current Warsong Lumber Camp is to reinforce their side of the Southfury River. The Kali Horde more or less picks up Stonetalon and South. With both sides destroying that Goblin made ravine in between Vale and Talon to reinforce their western borders.

On EK, the Horde brings in the FTs under the Revantusk. Fully securing the Hinterlands for them, and gifting them the once Scarlet Enclave territories to unite their Northern and Southern Holdings. While the Wildhammer return south for promises of fully rebuilding/resettling their ancestral lands of the Wetlands/Highlands. As well as (if Magni is to be believed about Old Gods) rebuilding Grim Batol into a true Open Top Dwarven Capital with Aviaries. The Forsaken give up Hillsbrad, Gilneas, and Southern SP (south of the Sepulcher), and along with the FTs and BEs pick up the Plaguelands. The FWs pick up Alterac. Dal goes Alliance.

What this does is create essentially very clear, very defensible borders along strong geographic lines. Gives PLENTY of room for EVERYONE to rebuild and grow. And gets everyone out of eachother’s ways for a while. Roughly giving both a 1/3rd-2/3rds territorial split on both continents.

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4779

The plaguelands are no alliance-Territory. The Argent Crusade is a neutral organisation, i´m pretty sure you would have to start a war to take this lands from them.

4780

The Argent Crusade is a religious order, one that’s outlived its mandate. I also doubt that it would be capable of holding its position, given its logistical isolation from potential help, if the Horde withdrew their support from it.

4781

I think you are imagining it too easily. The Argent Crusade is now part of the Silver Hand, which is largely made up of humans as we saw in the class hall, the territories held by the Argent Crusade are secure and the proportion of Horde in the Crusade has always seemed like people who don’t want to be part of the Horde anyway (it feels like 90% dwarves/humans/gnomes 10% rest).

and the crusade isn´t only a religious order, its more like a knight order from the medival age, like the templer or the german order, who have ruled about entire lands.

4782

Personally speaking, if a large scale world content update was ever put into place, I don’t think the amount of leveling zones would necessarily factor in as much as the density of content. Thanks to level scaling, a few more utilized and content dense hubs could provide substantially more content, convince, and attachment to more faction aligned leveling content.

If I could have my way, I’d give more options for leveling in general. One that was more of a wandering adventurer type, that had them going through various zones, dealing with small storylines before moving on, as well as more focused leveling experiences that were built around building up an individual area.

Think of areas like the Isle of Quel’danas, Sunsong Ranch, and to lesser degrees the Isle of Thunder. Areas that got built up over the course of building up reputation and carrying out quests. I’d like to see more areas like this added to the game, that could give follow up play throughs of the game (leveling up alts and the like) different experiences. (And provide more content for people who like going to low level zones). Have areas like the Crossroads, Southfury River, Hyjal, and Gnomergon serve as these progressive hubs. Where you slowly build up and transition the hub over the course of questing into a far more meaningful location while also leveling up your character. They could still have feeder quests into nearby dungeons, other progression hubs, and the like, but with daily and world quests, as well as main line series quests there is a lot of potential for content there. For places like this you slowly take the location from one form, and build it up. The Crossroads could slowly transition from a small hub outpost into a central trade city for the Horde. Gnomergon could slowly be cleared out, opening up more and more areas for questing and exploration, and Hyjal can be transformed into a grand Night Elf city.

In this way, the number of zones do not necessarily need to be as balanced as each other, just the number of progression hubs, and density of ‘Adventuring quest’ storylines to give each faction a similar bulk of content. Other leveling expansions could still fulfill the role of prior leveling styles, and dungeons and PvP would also exist as well. However, including newer styles of questing experiences more tied to locations, characters, and storylines could do a long way to help people more attach to and enjoy individual racial and factional storylines.

As an example, I’m sure Gnomes would be overjoyed if they could have the option, if they wished, to level solely through the rebuilding of Gnomergan. Or that Trolls could fortify the Echo Isles, or turn Jintha’alor into the jewel of the Hinterlands.

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4783

Are they?

Hearthglen I would see as an extremely difficult nut to crack, but also an easy one to isolate and marginalize, which leaves - what exactly, Light’s Hope and a few scattered outposts? Places with few to no fortifications that happen to sit in exposed areas?

Unless there was some massive rebuilding and reestablishment campaign that I’m not aware of.

4784

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the whole stipulation is about a sliver of the land the Horde would still have a presence in? That southeast corridor which I am suggesting is kept just as the jumping off point for much of the neutral story and Night Elf adjacent development Felwood to Hyjal. It has a few Horde quests or stories about resources, presumably, but also has Demon Fall, also has satyrs, also as corruption, its pressed between two wholly controlled Horde zones, the Barrens and Azshara, I really don’t think that presents an egregious compromise to everything else.

I understand the disinterest in giving it though. In Tyrande’s own words, there will be no treaty unless its written in Sylvanas’ blood. Point taken. Being in a coalition, however, means you don’t get everything you want through the diplomatic process. What I attempted to give primarily was a legitimate narrative agreement between all, that also threads the needle of game play secondary.

I’m not particularly interesting in going tit for tat for development either. Giving you all of Ashenvale while taking, for example, all of Feralas or Stonetalon. Or all of Northern Kalimdor for all of Eastern Kingdoms. As a Forsaken at heart, I don’t even want all of EPL, WPL, Silverpine, and Hillsbrad for the Forsaken alone. Defacto also having all of Dalaran and Alterac. I dont think many others do either.

This exemplifies an issue I find with the narrative development of the Night Elves since WC3, and how they are shown throughout the Warcraft universe. They have been shown to be so expansive and to be everywhere north to south, even very recently in the Warcraft timeline, the narrative wrote them into a corner to where any story development in the region seems to take something away. This is why the only proper Horde presence I suggested was that southeast corridor, and thats it. We lose the port, we lose the bases we conquered/established, we lose the entrance into Stonetalon. The Horde is largely out. I’d even walk it back to the DMZ suggestion Kaileath presented.

What we see though is a pretty remorseful Baine from get onset. Even in his dealings with Anduin as the war starts and Sylvanas’ apprehension towards the Tauren leadership. Its in 8.1, so pretty early on in the war still, that Baine does go rogue. Consider as well from Cataclysm when Baine wanted to support Vol’jin outright, but had to consider his people still inside Orgrimmar. Politics are never pretty or utopian.

We also see in Shadows Rising a few, albeit anecdotal, tauren still staunchly defending Hyjal and working with the Night Elves there through the Cenarian Circle. Overall, I believe a mischaracterization of the Tauren and leadership. So in my eyes, still a possibility for cooperation. Im not talking large scale we’re all singing kumbaya between Night Elves and the Horde races, but slowly growing trust between elves and the Horde races, likely starting with Night Elves and Tauren first, then working to the trolls and other Horde Earthen Ring members, orcs and goblins being the last. Still, the onus with Tauren leadership within the Cenarian Circle and how they are presented are with Hamuul, rather than Baine, and serves as that bridge. Also recognizing that no one people are a monolith. Including tauren and elves.

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4785

Which is why they should have no problem with the local races and nations inhabiting and using those territories. The Argents are NOT a nation, they are a religious order that serves a higher purpose. They were also ruthlessly run through the ringer in Legion. No one should have a problem with them retaining their few locals in the Plaguelands if they truly are acting in a neutral capacity like they claim. But if they really are trying to heal those territories for future living Human resettlement … they aren’t working in a neutral capacity. Not truly.

Frankly, even just for national defensive reasons, the BEs, Frostwolves, and Forsaken should have taken the Plaguelands ages ago. For the exact same reason why it would be important for both Gilneas and Stromgaurde to hold Hillsbrad. And Aerie Peak still remains a weird local for many reasons. Because it allow for overland routes between Allies that can be used for joint protection, trade, and resources. So either A) The Argents are neutral and should have no problem allowing the Horde races in the area use and rebuild those territories; or B) They AREN’T acting in a neutral capacity, and with that bring a whole bunch of problems down upon them.

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4786

I could see some kind of small, limited, Emerald Circle effort in Felwood, but every time you talk about Ashenvale, you’re talking about territory that the Night Elves can’t afford to let the Horde hold unless they want to strategically compromise their position. As for the Canyon, I think it makes sense if there’s a barrens-side entrance to it. That’s how they got there in Warcraft 3, and it’s a canyon of all things.

But, as was demonstrated before, the Alliance let the Night Elves down hard, and at this point, not only is Tyrande not returning Anduin’s messages, but she is backed up by people like Genn, who share her skepticism about the treaty that Anduin appears to have unilaterally crafted. Again, I don’t see the Night Elves compromising on this point - not after cooperation and compromise has brought them misery and death on a mass scale, in a situation that Stormwind doesn’t seem to be in the mood to help them with, to remedy, or even really to acknowledge.

He goes rogue extremely late, however, and not over a very clear and obvious atrocity. You can argue that politics isn’t perfect, but if you’re asking Night Elves to evaluate moves that they need to take to safeguard their lives, that’s not a very good excuse at this point. If anything, it just demonstrates the risk to be even greater, because their lives are suddenly now subordinate to what the Tauren find pragmatic. Again, why trust these people? Why work with them? Why forgive them if this is how you’re going to be repaid?

4787

Orders of knights were no less sovereigns than kings were. They ruled over vast territories.

The Argentum do it the same way, they raise steer, they build, they restore, they have civilians besides knights, many, they are a nation of their own, not just an order.

the argentum defend themselve and their rights…means not they are not neutral, if the alliance would do this and would get kicked out, it would still be the same reason, because they can hold it and conquered it from the scourge.

4788

Oh? I thought you argued we SHOULDN’T be trying to incorporate RW cultural standards into the Alliance and Horde because of the pretty prevalent racist undertones between how Blizz writes two factions?

And Orders of Knights held sovereignty over their lands through the sovereignty of their Kings. The Argents are an officially neutral organization, and thus have no king to reinforce their Sovereignty with. They also lack the political and military power to hold them without the toleration of the surrounding Horde nations. And should Calia (as she appears to be) truly take on A leadership role in the Forsaken … then by technicality as the last heir to Lordaeron those territories the Argent’s now reside would fall under her jurisdiction. Any sovereignty the Order of Argents/Silver Hand could claim would have to come through their SOVEREIGN … Calia Menethil.

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4789

The crusading orders received their legitimacy as rulers simply through A) military superiority and B)…papal mandate.

I don’t know how you can see it that they wouldn’t get along without the Horde, if it showed you one thing, the Argent Crusade is made up of felt 80% non Hordemembers and have their own lands to cultivate. They are independent of the Alliance and Horde.

4790

Which the Argents/Silver Hand have neither of. Because the Papal Legitimacy could only possibly come from the Alliance, and should they accept it the Argents are throwing the neutrality that protects them away. They also don’t hold military superiority enough to hold those lands without the surrounding Horde nations toleration; least of all after the wreckage they sustained in Legion.

EDIT: And the reason the Horde wouldn’t get along with the Argents is if the Argents aren’t working in a truly neutral capacity, but instead fully intend to undermine Horde nations nation defense by cleansing those territories SOLELY for living Human resettlement. If they are neutral, they should have no problem with the already local races living there.

4791

so something like this?

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4792

This time the legitimation was tirion, and his influence can´t from anyone denied, anyone respected him and he was infact the ashbringer, a very important holy figur in the war against the scrourge.

Its exist a mandat.

4793

Well apparently Baine was expecting the possibility of his own people being backstabbed for the sake of Jaina, late as it does come. I guess that has to count for something. :crazy_face:

4794

Since I want Gazlowe to pickup some of the Kali Steamwheedle branches, and Rokhan to pick up the Farraki after they were betrayed by Mueh’zala, throw Tanaris in there and its totally right. Clean cut borders that follow VERY strong geographic lines and natural defensive terrain for both sides. I also don’t really see a reason why the Alliance can’t use or pickup the Swamp of Sorrows. Its not land beyond repair.

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