How Can We Redeem/Rebuild The Horde (Actual Horde Edition)

[Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord]

if you believe that having new conflict right now is better for the Horde

It would involve both factions, and could easily be done in a satisfying way. There is evidence that the Horde won’t ever be satisfied without it. Obviously the destruction of Alliance property, and people’s is enjoyable for a considerable amount of Horde, and this is consistent. However, even building the Horde’s lore through PvE, and narrative has been pushed back on vehemently.
Orcs the Expansion involved PVE where there is a whopping single dungeon without the presence of the Orcs, meaning every single dungeon/raid, and I would argue storyline involves, and is saturated with the Orcs. But, it’s still treated as something to make Hordies fussy, which is observable.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

@Pellex-hyjal

I’m not saying that the “stain of BfA” can never be revisited. I’m just asking if you believe that having new conflict right now is better for the Horde than waiting a while and having other storylines happen first.

I think the sooner the Horde deals with this, the better. These debates aren’t going anywhere, and the Horde’s whole “finding itself” episode went nowhere. So I wouldn’t see the point in waiting.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

@Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord

Orcs the Expansion involved PVE where there is a whopping single dungeon without the presence of the Orcs, meaning every single dungeon/raid, and I would argue storyline involves, and is saturated with the Orcs. But, it’s still treated as something to make Hordies fussy, which is observable.

To be fair, the expansion in question was the end of this line of argumentation:

WC3 (Horde): The Orcs are past this demon blood thing.

Cata (Kosak): Oh ho ho! But here’s this super aggressive Orc from Nagrand! He never drank the demon blood and he’s bad too!

Cata (Horde): Well, wait a minute, he has good points - and look at Stonetalon. He cares about honor, right?

MOP (Kosak): Oh ho ho! But wait! He’s dabbling with Old Gods now, is using WMDs and wants to destroy the world! Better Siege Orgrimmar to stop him!

MOP (Horde): Okay, that was awful, but look, we had a revolution. It’s clear that not all orcs believe like he does, so…

WOD (Kosak): They’re all like that. These ones didn’t need demon blood either.

WOD (Horde): …

[Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord]

It’s still centered around them, and doesn’t rob them of anything. Garrosh did not have redeemable qualities btw.

[Zuleika-hyjal (Zuleika)]

Tell that to Alex Afrasiabi.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

@Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord

doesn’t rob them of anything

I mean, except for that character development from Warcraft 3 that most people thought they were signing onto in the first place.

[Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord]

I do not believe that most people were signing up for peaceful Orcs, even if that’s what was advertised. The Orcs effectively overcame the ‘demonblood’ before WoD was even over, and also literally overcame those who drank it(again) by the end of WoD. They got the exact same experience they had from WC3s expectations. Garrosh is even the example, and fulcrum they get the o the point again with.

[Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord]

Yeah yeah, but Garrosh doesn’t have redeemable qualities.

[Ariël-drakkari (Ariël)]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

But my point here is that PVP content is best served when it is a background, optional conflict consistent of content that sets up the battlegrounds, but then lets the battlegrounds themselves act as balanced arenas for play. Blizzard’s method of trying to tie a story into it or anoint winners and losers in different parts of the world, often through PVE, character-driven content, is anathema to that because it removes the illusion that your actions in that competitive environment matter.

Yes, ma´am. We indeed agree… and understand why creating moar BfA´s will never solve issues (cause the very premise IS an issue). I´ve never said PvPers can´t get their own lore basis for their own content, but I will firmly oppose using the faction conflict (A vs. H) as the main focus of the narrative cause this approach automathically make it a PvE feature and in consequence not only removes the competitive aspect your correctly point to, but drags entire portions of players like myself that have been burned (no pun inteded) too many times by Blizz´s inadequate and irresponsible use of this narrative.

Cata, MoP and BfA didn´t manage to make big portions of the playerbase happy, quite the contrary they annoyed the customers so much -including ironically the PvP players they devs probably tried to entice towards Pve content, the morons- the company ended up implementing “emergency” narratives to deviate the main focus of the narrative towards other stuff (usually, Old Gods. All the three “faction conflict” focused expacs ended up putting a “Big Bad Evil Old God” as the final “Boss” of the expac, one way or another).

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

So yes, we agree, the narrative focus should not be on Alliance vs. Horde. Doing that is contradictory to the gameplay mode that said conflict was trying to support in the first place.

Devs should had never ever left behind the Cold War approach that they used -and worked for them- from Vanilla to TBC… they started focusing actively on it in WotLK and that was when the issues started (Forsaken got ruined in Cata NOT because of rando villain batting… it was because they got robbed of their Râison d´etre AND villain batted while at it, so the narrative that sustained their existence in the game got derailed since WotLK, leaving them in limbo for Cata and basically ripe for idiotic stuff like the Stillwater case, for example. Or the whole “Forsaken vs. Worgen” can of worms.

@Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord

Orcs the Expansion involved PVE where there is a whopping single dungeon without the presence of the Orcs, meaning every single dungeon/raid, and I would argue storyline involves, and is saturated with the Orcs. But, it’s still treated as something to make Hordies fussy, which is observable.

Careful dude cause if ANY kind of attention is “good attention”, then people can argue there´s no “Nelf issue” in the first place, after all, the ones that are getting the most attention thanks to Teldrassil are the Nelves and therefore the people complaining over it are just a “bunch of ungrateful babies” like you seem to imply Orc fans are.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

I think the sooner the Horde deals with this, the better. These debates aren’t going anywhere, and the Horde’s whole “finding itself” episode went nowhere.

The Horde “finding itself” using their relationship with the Alliance as the main focus WILL NEVER go anywhere indeed… the only way the Horde can “find itself” is when the faction focus on itself.

Kinda like irl people take their own time to “find themselves” and don´t merely use their alrerady existing close bonds to do it and call it a day. Finding oneself refers precisely to an inner problem.

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

I mean, except for that character development from Warcraft 3 that most people thought they were signing onto in the first place.

Now, let me present you an actual poster with dubious faith in their arguments… notice how he is 1000% in favor of solving the “Nelf issue” in favor of the Nelf fans but literally ignores the discontent of the horde players under a “lul, Orcs were bad always -coughcoughWC1&WC2only- and people should believe WC3 doesn´t mean anything and get happy even if they get villain batted cause lul Orcs are bad and cameo is more than good enough for them!!!”.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

PVP is a sport. It works off of the same psychologies and therefore so too must its gameplay. You wouldn’t have the NFL having one team blow up another one’s stadium in a narrative about how the Patriots or something need to find themselves. That would lose them fans. It works because you have teams to root for, and the best games are the ones that are between competent rivals.

OK, then why don’t we do what SWtoR did ages ago and actually treat it like a sport in universe? Where its how the two factions get some shots off at eachother in a controlled environment, then go back to their day to day like the players do. If the Republic, Hutts, and Sith can do it … the Red and Blue team can.

[Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord]

Careful dude cause if ANY kind of attention is “good attention”

They already do, and actively are. It’s literally been presented as unavoidable not just by the narrative, but by the Horde posters on this forum. Also, the Orc fans are a bunch of ungrateful babies, when we see things like other race’s tragedies taking the backseat to their representatives, which is already past what I initially pointed out. Which is an entire expansion, and it’s dungeons and raids worth of development for them where they aren’t reduced to ash by the end of it. An expansion where the title is Orcs, and it is led to, and from by Orcs. The entire thing is about them, but because of a singular aspect they have turned their nose up over it, and claim literal victimhood over it, but would rather deny anything for the NE, including a return to their status quo. Something the Orcs have gotten twice.

I don’t even like the NE as much as the Orcs, and I think the amount of crying over WoD far exceeds what the NE have done, and what seems totally valid.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

Because Blizzard chose to ramrod the conflict into a linear good versus evil story in order to try and use the faction conflict in dungeons and raids, and to prop up their mainline characters.

As I hope is evident, I hate this approach. The SWtoR team appears to have known what they were doing.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

Because Blizzard chose to ramrod the conflict into a linear good versus evil story in order to try and use the faction conflict in dungeons and raids, and to prop up their mainline characters.

And the perpetuation of such a Good vs Evil narrative will destroy my faction without question. Its been nothing but a negative story thread on a story level. So if we’re postulating a change in that Good vs Evil game mechanic (which is necessary), then might as well bite the bullet and just make PvP an in universe sport already.

[Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord]

“lul, Orcs were bad always -coughcoughWC1&WC2only- and people should believe WC3 doesn´t mean anything and get happy even if they get villain batted cause lul Orcs are bad and cameo is more than good enough for them!!!”.

You sure do have to make up as much as you can, to pretend that you have a point over anyone else. Quote me on the subject of the Orcs overcoming the demon blood in WoD the same as they do in WC3, and try to reason on how I said anything about WC1-WC2.

[Kyalin-cenarion-circle (Kyalin)]

Nah, I think that’s the wrong road to take. The proper one is to get it out of that good versus evil frame. The “cold war” method worked just fine. I assert that it can again - and that it’s a far better route to take than just establishing that the lore reasons for people fighting each other are entirely meaningless.

[Droité-black-dragonflight]

@Kyalin-cenarion-circle

I assert that it can again

Not with the writing team philosophy atm it cannot. So I’ll go back to my litmus test on this issue. IF Blizz can show they can shirk the plot-device from Baine enough to give him a personal, meaningful developmental character arc in the Land of the Dead … I might consider them capable of shirking the plot-device from the Horde enough to make a more nuanced micro-level PvP scenario. With the ingredients they currently have for Baine, and with him being the main rep for one of the most (if not the most) spirit worshipping PC races … that should not be a problem. The recipe is all set, they just have to use it.

If however Blizz can’t let him escape that plot-device role, even in this setting of all places, and makes him merely an accessory to Anduin’s story … under no circumstances can Blizz be trusted to write a nuanced PvP storyline. Even a small scale one. Because they prove themselves incapable of even considering losing their “Token Good Horde”. And so long as they need that tool, their temptation to villain bat the Horde will always be there. If they TRULY are going to allow the Horde to finally Rebuild/Redeem itself, then him being locked in that Token Good Horde status should no longer be needed. And Baine can become his own character again.

EDIT: And by extension, maybe the Horde Plot-Device can finally be written as a Faction again.

[Ariël-drakkari (Ariël)]

Careful again dude, cause if anything and everything the devs do is “deserved” then it´s not in your position to complain Nelves got unfortunately made into ashes when their demigod got it´s butt K.O.ed by a handful of Orcs who just took a fix of their drug to achieve it back in WC3… those “demigods” got punked by a bunch of High green men, as ugly as it sounds.

Also, if one character is “good enough” to qualify and deffine entire races if not entire factions, then why are you here complaining like the actual baby when the most relevant character of the Alliance is the poster child for “put on the other cheek and ALWAYS forgive-and-forget”. Talk about “ungrateful”.

Tl;dr: If you’re not ready to fight, don’t get in the boxing ring… and don´t pretend to tell other people how they should perceive their faction when your are UNABLE to see your fav with a minimum of honesty and self awareness.

@Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord

You sure do have to make up as much as you can, to pretend that you have a point over anyone else. Quote me on the subject of the Orcs overcoming the demon blood in WoD the same as they do in WC3, and try to reason on how I said anything about WC1-WC2.

I don´t need to… your answer to Kyalin´s point was basically this:

@Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord

I do not believe that most people were signing up for peaceful Orcs, even if that’s what was advertised.

Meaning you pretend to talk for most of the Orc fans and dismiss the ones that liked the race for their peaceful / hopeful portrayal of WC3. Therefore, if “most” players were NOT -according to you ofc- signing up to play the “good Orcs” -who only started to appear in WC3-, is obvious that majority of players inside your biased mind HAD TO forcibly use either used WC1 or WC2 as the inspiration for their choice. Unless you want to reach further and say “most people signed up for NOT peaceful Orcs” using other games or other movies as the inspiration.

See the problem you encounter when you pretend to speak for “the majority” of other players? Then your rationalizations are no better than tinfoil hat theories. And their argumentative basis nonexistant.

And before I forget: Word of God contradicts this point when they admited people liked MORE the Horde portrayal in WC3, contrary to their expectatives.

@Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord

Quote me on the subject of the Orcs overcoming the demon blood in WoD the same as they do in WC3

Sure man… cause in WoD ALL the Orc clans drank the blo… oops!! NO they DID NOT.

And sure cause the explanation for their hyper aggresion and the focus they put on tyhe Draenei thanks to Kil´Jaeden´s machinations were totes the same as in WC3 with Gom dyi… oopss!! NOPE ths DID NOT happen -as a matter of fact it was the opposite: Grom never drank the blood, acted as the poster child of “Bad Orcs will Orccasue you know… Orc, duh” and didn´t even had the decency of dying redeeming his personal sins and the way those sins condemned his race, he actually appears ALIVE with NO narrative explanation as the “bro” of Y´rel in the final cinematic of the expac.

The problem with your whole premise is that is a false one… constructed only to insult the Orc fanbase AND the Horde fanbase for who knows why reason… in a thread made by Horde fans interested in constructively fixing their faction.

So yes sir, me thinks the baby in this case isn´t us. Is the “genius” coming into a thread he/she shouldn´t even care about just to derail and complain AGAINST the Horde and it´s players, period.

[Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord]

Careful again dude, cause if anything and everything the devs do is “deserved”

I guess if I remotely said the NE deserved what they got you could quote that, but no where close to my posts did I say that they got what they deserved. The NE didn’t get anything, and they sure didn’t have their own expansion, on top of another expansion focus. Once again, I’m not sure why you’re having to make up quotations for something I haven’t said.

Also, if one character is “good enough” to qualify and deffine entire races if not entire factions, then why are you here complaining

Because brats with low reading comprehension like you are unable to rationalize that the integrity of any morality by the Alliance is to service the Horde. Instead you moan day in, and out in a synchronized drone that the Alliance expects to maintain purity while practically everyone thinks the NE deserve to get an actual swerve in.

Tl;dr: If you’re not ready to fight, don’t get in the boxing ring

What is this nonsense? 1v1 Aspirants Rest.

you pretend to talk for most of the Orc fans and dismiss the ones that liked the race for their peaceful.

This is a non existent prospect. The Orcs very obviously weren’t going to start ploughing, and sowing wheat. You can pretend I’m being dismissive of these ‘fans’ of the Orcs, but they’re obviously the minority, and the only reason the premise existed was to give Thrall validity. Validity which, to this day, has had to be won from his own faction, more then the Alliance.

I was going to try and interpret more of what you’ve tried to make sense with here, but it’s nonsense.

Sure man… cause in WoD ALL the Orc clans drank the blo… oops!! NO they DID NOT.

They all didn’t drink the demon blood in WC3 either. You’re not making any progress with whatever point you’ve lost in your own schipel here is.

WC3 and WoD is an identical end for the Orcs. Defeating Arch with a combined force, overcoming the demon blood, and no difference in their expectation for a their people.

So yes sir, me thinks the baby in this case isn´t us. Is the “genius” coming into a thread he/she shouldn´t even care about just to derail and complain AGAINST the Horde and it´s players, period.

Yeah, because this doesn’t make you sound deranged. Never mind my validity of point in how abhorrent you feel towards an expansion lead into, out of, and through an expansion with an Orc in every single instanced piece of PvE content, and you appear on the other side with a full diaper. But, then the NE’s can’t possibly be the solution that the Horde needs for their redeeming.
Get a pacifier, and lower your blood pressure.

[Ariël-drakkari (Ariël)]

@Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord

I guess if I remotely said the NE deserved what they got

Well this IS the issue… cause you deliberately say Orc players got “what they deserved” and Nelf players didn´t. And sorry man but BOTH got screentime (Nelves are the ONLY ones getting some sort of resolution to BfA… you and other posters didn´t liking how Blizz choose to portray that resolution doesn´t make it less real, sorry… so congratulations on destroying your own argument by yourself).

@Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord

Because brats with low reading comprehension like you are unable to rationalize that the integrity of any morality by the Alliance is to service the Horde.

Lolwhut? Are you implying the morality of the Alliance MUST be in service to the Horde?

Excuse me, since when are they one and the same so their narrative development is ABSOLUTELY DEPENDANT from each other or GTFO.

The brat with low reading comprehension is certainly NOT me.

@Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord

What is this nonsense?

An allegory Mr. “Reading comprehension expert”… funny you didn´t get the message, wonder why?

@Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord

This is a non existent prospect. The Orcs very obviously weren’t going to start ploughing, and sowing wheat. You can pretend I’m being dismissive of these ‘fans’ of the Orcs, but they’re obviously the minority,

Put on certified proof or simply admit headcanon. Cause as far as I´m concerned, nobody named YOU the Orc fanbase spokeperson.

@Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord

They all didn’t drink the demon blood in WC3 either.

Sure cause NO clans BUT one drinking it = ALL clans BUT one drinking it.

And I´m the person who doesn´t know how to read, lol. Nonsense indeed.

@Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord

WC3 and WoD is an identical end for the Orcs.

If you think that only the end of a story is relevant, then I think I get now how you can rationalize such atrocious takes.

Newflash: stories have a beggining, a middle and an end. And ALL these parts are CRUCIAL for the coherent construction of it, not only the ones that benefit one´s agenda.

@Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord

Yeah, because this doesn’t make you sound deranged.

As a matter of fact no, it doesn´t. After all I´m not the sociopath that logs and participates in a “discussion” only to moan and insult other players for not “getting my point”. Nor am I the one calling names to other players whewn my argument amounts to "Im sure of this -no scientifical nor much less statistical proof of my remarks btw- and anyone that oposes me is a baby with a “full diaper”… such “mature” attitude coming from you, I´m “shocked!!”.

@Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord

Get a pacifier, and lower your blood pressure.

Follow your own advice and go back to school cause they robbed you as far as literature and language is concerned.

[Vuldezi-wyrmrest-accord]

cause you deliberately say Orc players got “what they deserved”

Point this out, quote me. I dare you.

And sorry man but BOTH got screentime (Nelves are the ONLY ones getting some sort of resolution to BfA… you and other posters didn´t liking how Blizz choose to portray that resolution doesn´t make it less real, sorry…

Oh, the Forsaken are getting Calia, their favorite, and also the unending slog of their Dark Queen. The NE haven’t been awarded a single iota of anything, and it shows. Atleast according to what most of the Horde posters complain about. NEs.

Are you implying the morality of the Alliance MUST be in service to the Horde?

Excuse me, since when are they one and the same so their narrative development is ABSOLUTELY DEPENDANT from each other or GTFO.

Since when? Since the Horde have had multiple expansions with them as the focus. Where the Alliance are forced to save them repeatedly, because kicking them at all would be seen as some kind of ‘injustice’ that the Horde couldn’t bare.

Put on certified proof or simply admit headcanon.

When there’s a thread about Saurfang. The only thing ‘horde’ fans can manage to say about him is that, the only people who like him are Alliance. The Orc that doesn’t want to continue fighting, and is upset to tear Thrall the precious from his ‘desired’ outcome in the wheat fields.

Sure cause NO clans BUT one drinking it =

One of the many raids of WoD with Orcs. Featuring Fel Orcs, who drank demon blood…

Nor am I the one calling names to other players whewn my argument amounts to "Im sure of this -no scientifical

Scientifical? Doesn’t make you sound deranged at all.

Follow your own advice and go back to school cause they robbed you as far as literature and language is concerned.