One of the few things from BFA I actually liked was the split leveling experience. They should do that more often.
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I know one thing that’s incredibly frustrating for me is that on top of the Horde being saddled with absolute moral turpitude, they’ve done nothing but lose. Both Battlefronts were declared to be Alliance victories, allowing them to reclaim the Kingdom of Stromgarde (after the zone was revamped to include a bunch of new Horde territory and buildings ONLY so they could be destroyed) and Darkshore. The Eastern Kingdoms book told us that not only did the Alliance reclaim Fenris Isle as the War Table said, but that the Bloodfang Worgen successfully took over Shadowfang Keep AND Alliance Paladins successfully purified and reclaimed Southshore, giving the Alliance multiple footholds in the Forsaken’s remaining heartland right after they lost their capital. The Horde feels like its been railroaded not only into being villains, but into full-blown Alliance punching bags who’s only victories or successes are there for the sake of ripping them away later to assuage the Alliance for those victories being allowed in the first place.
Make it clear that the last war was not just an exercise in the Horde getting dunked on because they were the baddies. Yeah, we got the Council and we got Zandalar, but that’s not enough. Show that Zandalar was a sleeping giant and now that they’re part of the Horde not only are they rebuilding their navy, they’re starting to reclaim their lost lands in Nazmir and Voldun. Show that the Highmountain and Nightborne are leveraging the fact that they’re allies now and consolidating power over the Broken Isles. Show that the Forsaken have taken Alterac and are rebuilding it as a new bastion against the encroaching Alliance who have footholds in their lands in every direction, and show that they’ve made amends with the Frostwolves so that they don’t stand alone. Show that you remember that Andorhol and thus most of the WPL is Horde territory, that the Revantusk took Jintha’alor and its a major Horde city, show that Hammerfall still stands and the Horde is not going to be pushed out of one of the most important pieces of their history by the Stromics (heck, have them make peace with the Forest Trolls and Orges in the area so they can present a united front to keep the Stromics out of the East entirely). Make it 100% clear that Ashenvale is Horde Land now and that it took everything the Night Elves had just to push them back out of Darkshore instead of just letting the Night Elves retake it offscreen for the SECOND TIME. Have the Horde triumph in the Southern Barrens and boot the Alliance out of their heartlands once and for all.
Do something so the Horde can finally feel like the last three expansions were not just an exercise in the writers and Alliance players slinging mud at them so they would feel bad about the color they picked on the character creation screen.
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I was behind you for most of your ideas, but I just cannot for this one in specific. That is inviting a never ending guerilla campaign on the Horde, and I just cannot imagine an armistice being signed with the Horde occupying that territory.
What the Horde should instead be doing is expanding south. there is a LOT of entirely uncontested Territory. Like a good 2/3rd of the continent. The Kaldorei are not expansionists; leave them alone and they will very much leave you alone.
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But the other way is also true with night elf never really having control of Ashenvale since its on Orgrimar border. Expending south doesn’t negate that the alliance would have territory literally next to the horde capital city.
I always claim that the super big zone called Ashenvale should just be split in two. The west part being redesign to look like the current Ashenvale and keep the name while the east part just get rename something else and be redesign.
But as always that proposition is always not like by night elf player who want 100% as a ‘‘compromise’’. And no, being a WC3 ‘‘sacred’’ zone that even the night elf left and let barely just sentinel to protect isn’t a good reason as to why the horde 16+ years later should have the alliance on their capital back door just so the night elf can have a 5th or more zone.
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You legally have Azshara. Your “gate” is separate from the night elves.
Otherwise it will be “night elves near the capital -> near the backyard -> near the fence -> near the work (logging)” and so on until the night elves are evicted from Kalimdor.
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They NEED to this for at least 2 or more expacs… as I´ve been repeating like a broken record: let´s give the factions AND their characters some space, please!!!
You already forgot Feralas, right? And Silithus and then I´m not sure the Nelves will really leave the Horde Alone" -cause let´s be real… if lorewise speaking the Nelves felt compelled to go play Kalimdor´s PD in BfA´s pre-patch, what´s impending them to spy and “control” the Horde in Un´Goro et al? Heck, this “Nelf need” to be policing people out of their jurisdiction IS the basis for the Ghostlands questing ffs.
I agree Ashenvale and upwards should be discarded as a territory of importance for the Horde, but unless there´s a metaphysical entity like Gan´s singularity separating the factions I frankly doubt the Nelves can manage to stay in their side of the fence. Lore simply put it doesn´t support this notion.
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The main reason why I want the Horde to claim the bulk of Ashenvale as a result of the war is that thematically I think its necessary for Tyrande to see consequences for her pursuit of revenge. Just like I’ve been waiting for three expansions for Genn to see consequences for HIS pursuit of revenge in Stormheim. Revenge, I think most of us can agree, is generally not a laudable thing to lust after in fantasy fiction. Tyrande had a choice when the Armistice came to stop the bloodshed or to keep it going because she wanted payback, and she chose the later. It was a reasonable choice for her character, but she shouldn’t be rewarded for it on a thematic scale. The Horde keeping the majority of their conquests in Ashenvale because the Night Elf leader elected not to make peace would be a sensible consequence.
Now, I don’t want to dig too deeply into the can of worms that is the long suffering of the Night Elves and their eternal status as the Alliance’s Worf who seem to exist only to be beat up to show someone else is a badass, because this thread is the Horde thread and there are other Night Elf threads. I recognize that NIght Elf players are going to see things differently and not feel like that outcome would be reasonable or fair to them for the prices THEY’VE paid in these storylines. I’m coming at this from a Horde perspective, and from a Horde perspective Tyrande should not be rewarded for choosing the way of bloodshed as her preferred resolution to the 4th war.
All that being said, something like a 50/50 split where the Night Elves used every last bit of their strength to retake Astranaar but had nothing left to push further east and the rest of the Forest has been left in Horde hands, leaving the onus on the HORDE to do the moral thing and leave them be even though they crippled themselves for that victory and there would be nothing stopping the Horde from marching right back in and taking the city back, something like that I would find entirely acceptable as a compromise. The Night Elves get a big W at the Horde’s expense, but the Horde get something of value out of it both materially and spiritually.
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Well… I don’t really mind if they break up the zone to make it formally horde south of ryenewood retreat, tbh. I’d be cool with it if they would refresh hyjal.
I do think that it be an endless conflict zone though.
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I don’t even want it to be 50/50. Just having the east part of the river at the east of ryenewood would be way enough. And yeah i know that it would still be a conflict zone but at least we wouldn’t have a whole zone switching faction over and over. Each side would have their zone. Having some small border conflict is also what i would prefect as faction battle instead of having full world war.
And in my ideal world, botani would join the horde and would be the one living in that new zone with the botani forest instead of just having the same old boring orc cutting tree camp. It would also allow us to have night elf tree vs botani tree battle. On the other end, alliance could reclaim part or the whole stonetalon mountain and give it to their new allied the saberon.
Orgrimar have more than ONE side. And i am talking not being close to the horde capital CITY. Not being close to any horde zone.
You once again just make no sense…
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So the night elves have to move just because the Horde fears for their safety?
How would you like to give Azshara and Western Ashenvale to the Druids? Yes, most druids are night elves. So, technically, the night elf zones will not be in contact with the Horde zones. Formally (scream).
Frankly the writers probably SHOULD evict the Night Elves from Kalimdor. The Alliance playerbase makes it more and more clear every day that they WANT to evict the Forsaken and other Horde powers completely from the EK, I think I’ve seen more than dozen new RP guilds premised entirely on this just since Shadowlands launched on Moon Guard alone. They even have Turalyon in-game musing about retaking old Alliance lands in the North. Just do it. Make the EK Alliance land and Kalimdor Horde land and we never have to deal with this dumb garbage again. There’s plenty of run-down creepy land for the Forsaken to live on in Kalimdor, and there’s plenty of forests and woodlands that could use some Night Elf TLC in EK. New homelands for everybody! Fresh starts! No more pointless border tensions to erupt into more stupid wars. Just put a definitive end to it.
Note this isn’t my PREFERRED outcome, but at least it solves the problem.
Not.
However … You can leave a “present” at parting. And Kalimdor will burn in the fire of wisps! Yes! Fire of thousands and thousands of souls! Steppes, forests, jungles - no one will escape the flames of the dead!
Not. Night elves will not move.
Moreover, this is not an “unequivocal victory”. This is “escape”. Most likely a “shameful flight”.
Moreover, instead of “border tension” there will be “intercontinental tension”. And, perhaps, “border tensions” will remain, only it will be “Night Elves - Alliance”.
The night elves will want to return their lands, the Alliance will not support them in this, they will quarrel … The night elves will lose. Again.
Something like saberon are probably the last link needed for the alliance to recreate an entire sanitized TBC-era horde out of expansion races and content alone. Between them, worgen, draenei and DK-style undead, you’ve basically got 4 monster races on top of void elves subbing in for that old sinsister blood elf style that the actual race itself lost when moving on to WotLK. I imagine it’d make the horde itself thematically redundant at that point.
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Perhaps, but I don’t see it happening. Imagining a world where the Kaldorei entrust Nordrassil and their most sacred mountain to the Horde after they just burnt them out of house and home is just… no.
I don’t honestly think the Forsaken will be kicked out either. TBH I sort of think the Forsaken should just take over the isle of Caer Darrow and Scholomance beneath it. Seems right up their alley.
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In one post: why so many Night Elf fans resent the Alliance.
With friends like these, who needs enemies?
Buddy, you got to comprehensively beat the Night Elves. Blizzard gave that to you and didn’t make you work for it. The pendulum swinging back in the other direction would involve far, far more than Ashenvale. Be thankful that people mostly aren’t calling for that.
Ashenvale being entirely in their control was the state of things before the war, and it should be the case after - that’s the only case there is where we have tangible and defensible geographical borders to explain why neither side can push forward.
Lol, I only care about who wins and loses in the story insofar as it affects the story’s thematic health bud. The Horde losing every battle and gaining absolutely nothing from the war on top of being saddled with permanent irreparable guilt for participating in it in the first place is not conducive to a healthy story when Blizzard ALSO refuses to just end the faction divide. Tyrande getting rewarded by the narrative for chasing revenge and leading her people into further killing fields just to put the borders back where they were and/or rack up a body count to even the score isn’t conducive to a healthy story. The Alliance as a whole being in a place where if Turalyon starts an unprovoked war of aggressive conquest in the Northern EK most of the players will cheer and call it only what the Horde deserves isn’t conducive to a healthy story. Nothing about the current state of affairs is healthy for anyone or anything. Fixing that is my only real desire. I’ll entertain any idea that gets us out of this mess, even an idea as simple and dumb as “Fifth War Happens, Horde takes all of Kalimdor, Alliance takes all of EK, and Literal Space Gods come down and forbid us to ever have a war again like its Star Trek TOS.”
Also Ashenvale was not entirely in Night Elf control before the war, the Horde never lost its holdings on the east end of the forest, and Zoramgar was still there during the War of Thorns so they clearly didn’t lose that either.
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After the MoP, Ashenvale belonged only to the night elves.
And again the war in the Eastern Kingdoms … Why there? Fight in Kalimdor, most of the Horde is here.
You’re wrong. Zoramgar was a canonical staging ground during the 4th War, we visit there in the game, QED Ashenvale demonstrably did not belong only to the Night Elves. The War Table missions in BFA make direct mention of Spintertree and Warsong Lumber Camp still being in Horde hands, and one mission even strongly implies Silverwind Refuge is still owned by the Horde.
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The mission table missions take place after the War of the Thorns. The books meanwhile make clear that the Night Elves controlled the region and that Zoram’gar was close to abandoned. The Horde didn’t even have control of the Mor’shan Rampart before hostilities started.
Your first sentence and your second one are at odds with each other. Not only are you screwing over the investment of playerbases other than your own, but you’re doing it to more people than you think. You want to run this plan by Forsaken or Blood Elf players? Think they’ll be happy with it? How about Droite and Ariel who are sick to death of the Horde striking into Ashenvale? Whose experience are you fixing here, exactly?