How Can We Redeem/Rebuild The Horde (Actual Horde Edition)

Lore Story Forum
4304

Two things:

  1. We don´t know for certain how many actual players actually play on Alliance and which content they devote their time to -yes I said that-; so let´s not bring the “qqqq Alliance is DEAD” fallacy into this conversation. “Buut, buut!!! No mythic raid Alliance guildies in first places!?!”… simply gal, mmaybe hardcore players are in Horde, but to extrapolate “Alliance mythic raid player population” = “ALL Alliance player population” is absurd, simply because this is JUST one of the gameplay features offered by the game AND maybe Alliance players devote their times in other types of content.

  2. More importantly: that hypothetical “player population unbalance”? IF it exists -cause I repeat: none of us have the actual data to issue this type of controversial conclussions-, it is waaaay more probable to be soimething derived out of GAMEPLAY stuff than lore one, simply because most average players effectively give two censored word about the story of this game; they just want their fancy purples and their favorite class/spec combo not totally sucking at gewtting those purples, period.

But ofc we Hore fans wanting to take distance from beiung the convenient villain source plot hole is us being “selfish” and “unfair”, pfffff!!!

Going back onto the topic… you never answered about my inquiry regarding Goblin status quo in Gan´s scenario (you are after all the most prominent Gob fan in here).

3 Likes
4305

Uhh … I guess I missed that part? All I saw him doing was sort of reflecting on Gazlowe being the new Trade Prince a little, and how just like so many of our other current leads he’s underdeveloped and needs TLC.

4306

Hehehe, no he hasn´t said anything. I was the one asking YOU about it… cause his scenario pretty much makes the Gobs the most powerful race in Kali after singularity erases Thunder Bluff and most of Durotar from the map.

After I thought about it, I realized Aszhara would get mostly scott free cause that was the way Gan used to prevent damaging Ashenvale et al… same with Tanaris, soooo… maybe this is the chance to put that necessary development in Gazlowe in a more “Horde racial leadership” angle?

4307

I mean, generally, the direction I want Gazlowe to go is for him to start doing some corporate takeover stories of at least the remaining Steamwheedle Kali branches. Minus Everlook, because I find it hard to imagine why the NEs are still tolerating them there. And through those acquisitions we can get some cool leadership and character building for him, right alongside the Cartel. I would also like Mida to start getting built up (or Sassy, whichever) along with him, because we need at least 1 B Rank rep too. And they are both decent choices.

4308

I absolutely agree with the Everlook angle -frankly the less we are related to Nelf territory the better cause I can already hear “people” asking for Warsong Gulch 2.0 but in the Snow and with shorter green monsters instead.

Do take into account the Steamwheedle branch on Ratchet is literally nonexistant on that scenario.

4309

Well, I figure we could push say … Ricket into being the next Branch Manager of Ratchet while Gazlowe settles in as Trade Prince of the whole cartel. That town is his baby after all. Then we’ll work Mudsprocket and Gadgetzan into the mix. Then have Mida work on that long overdue cross continent Grimrail line, with like … Nisha of the Vulpera serving as chief of security to give both those girls some development.

4310

Wait, I have a question: is the singularity STILL there or there´s only the big bad crater? Cause the cross continental Grimrail line kinda doesn´t work if there´s a deadly magical source in the midle of the way.

4311

I dunno? I guess I’m not overtly into the idea of blowing up more of the continent. I think a lot of what Gan is trying to accomplish could be done with a less flashy proper usage of the Lightbound (also using the Alliance). I’m trying not to feed too much into Blizzards’ fixation on the bombastic, or their tendency to ONLY destroy and never build anything new in the Old World.

4312

Well Droité, considering how much I DON´T want to interact with Alliance races ever, I see the beauty in Gan´s proposal (while the Lightbound scenario could work, things is… this too feeds the stupid PvP centered faction conflict and the last thing we need is for it to be used as another step to “solve” the Nelf problem.

4313

Which is largely why my idea for them exploits the fact that so many peaceniks and the PCs are off world while all that goes down. The Lightbound forces added to the Alliances would shift the balance of power monumentally in the Alliance’s favor. By the time we all get back, the Horde would be on the breaking point, but things are getting really suspect with the Alliance’s new Ally. So we’re really dealing with only the fallout of that conflict, and the greater issues at play operating behind it.

Its … a lot of making use of the unique opportunities Yrel and the SLs have allowed us, but it could work. And operates largely on a flipped Ner’zhul script. With the Light Mother taking on the Sargaras role. Yrel, the KJ tempted into a grand crusade for “greater good”. And Turalyon, the Ner’zhul. A generally good man who has his peoples safety and his own faith exploited against him to commit him to something horrific. With him realizing only too late the deal with the devil he’s made. But its no less reasonable an idea than Gans.

EDIT: And the reason I’m partial to the Lightbound as an enemy is because of their “saving us from ourselves dogma” that could really resonate with the Alliance; which PC races could be thrust to the forefront to show their capacity for Heroism and grit(A: Lightforged & VElves; H: Forsaken & AU Mag’har); and which characters left-behind will be forced to deal with those issues while we’re gone. Chief among them for the Horde, Lor’themar, Rokhan, Voss, Gazlowe, & Geya’rah. With a “pressure turns coal to diamonds” philosophy with them all.

4314

Both. The crater is there and the singularity (just a fine point of every shifting dark light energy) is in the sky at the center.

:pancakes:

4315

The curious among us would like to dive into the reasons for this gap.

One theory (and before you object, I recognize that this is a multivariate problem. I am simply describing one factor among many) that I’ve had going back to the origins of the PVP gap is that the marketing just doesn’t support a strong, serious Alliance population. Ask most people and they’ll tell you that the Horde is badass and the Alliance is boring.

But, that’s just coming from the perspective of a former PVPer who isn’t helping to fill that gap anymore because the lore was making me feel like crap about my choice. I’m pretty sure that most of the people who weren’t as attached to one race or another just rerolled to the metal album cover faction. :woman_shrugging:

Not that you appear to care about that given that your solution for the Alliance appears to be to let them wither away.

4316

Youy know, after the whole debacle with Kyalin + the “pl0x not villain bat Turalyon” thread I see waaay less advantage with the whole Lightbound narrative, Droité. Simply because it IS more than a little bit hypocritical in execution.

Simply put it -and as someone who has been playing A LOT her Mag´har Orc lately (I needed to level my leatherworking profession for the Legendary stuff to the advantage of my main Belf rogue you see)-, I feel ZERO interest in caving-in the teeth of the people that were coded as the victims of the Orcs back in WoD (and yes, while the current Mag´har up to Geya´rah herself are trying to be pass as “individuals born AFTER the whole Iron Horde debacle ergo mostly innocent”, thing is… as a player, this doesn´t erase the fact the Orcs were the aggresors that hit first back then). Yrel and the Lightbound ARE heroes for the Alliance players, and it´s more than a little bit hypocritical to deny resolution to PvP oriented players like Kyalin while we literally fulfill the wet dreams of the PvP oriented Orc players by proxy of choosing an enemy that should be as uncomfortable to play against as the Nelves currently are. And after hours playing my Mag´har Orc, I realized I would absolutely DISLIKE taking down Yrel as a “raid Boss” because she WAS the victim poster child of WoD, and making her a “cartoonish” villain is no better than what the devs did with Sylvanas in BfA.

Nice!! This means you put A LOT of pressure on the Goblins in Aszhara, Thousand Needles and Tanaris -cause shouldn´t the Nelves try to, you know… get back the Aszhara map now that the main sources of Horde power backing Orgrimmar are basically nonexistant?-

Maybe we could use this as a plot device to make the gobs use that privileged brain they have into developing -in conjunction with portal experts like Occuleth- technnology to circunvent the singularity menace? It seem a nice way to counter the OP powerhouses of the Alliance.

Wrong, as someone with a scientific background, I´m starting by identifying if the “problem” truly exist in the first place.

I love my spec / class combo Kyalin, I literally not raid unless it´s with Ariël… and 9.0 was a disaster for my class/spec combo (we were nicely putting it the butt of the dps table). As a result, I decided NOT to raid (heck, not even LFR)… and I´m sure my experience can´t be used to conclude all and every rogue player rage quitted and left the game(most surely the players switched to other specs or even to other classes and continued playing).

Science method 101: don´t use particular experience to conclude, use actual data to make the conclussions. And make sure the data is acquired with the less bias possible to diminish the unavoidable error.

Tl;dr: you leaving the game cause the story sucked doesn´t mean all players do the same… heck it doesn´t even mean RP players with PvP orientation do the same (they can perfectly jump to other characters and continue playing).

4317

I feel like I’m speaking way out of my element here (well, maybe moreso than usual) but wasn’t alliance the dominant PVP faction back during WoD? I think the overall endgame split was more “even” in that horde PVE’d and alliance leaned toward PVP, but the population started drifting back toward horde in Legion and the competitive players that did so realized “why switch back and forth when almost all of the talent is already together?”.

4318

Ech, fair. I shouldn’t be so quick to say things like this.

The difficulty is with actually sourcing the data in this instance, and when you do so, it’s never enough and people make fun of you for going out and finding it. If I wanted to do a study of this type, I think I know exactly how I’d do it. I’d hunt for “I’m quitting” threads on GD, compile them by race and class and sort complaints by category to identify where the issues are cropping up. I’d probably have to compare that with Metacritic information, as well as actual reviews (because they have to be comprehensive) to pick out the elements that are working and that aren’t.

But again, that kind of adventure isn’t worth the time, and it’s the most thankless thing you’ll ever do on these forums - and the people whose narratives are threatened by your findings will reflexively deny it anyway. Which is why instead I put my finger on factors as likely contributors based on my observations of playerbases, and the research I’ve looked at, with a healthy dose of hedging as well.

Edit:

and it´s more than a little bit hypocritical to deny resolution to PvP oriented players like Kyalin while we literally fulfill the wet dreams of the PvP oriented Orc players by proxy of choosing an enemy that should be as uncomfortable to play against as the Nelves currently are.

Thank you for mentioning this though. I think that adequately captures my concern. I’ll add, you mentioned the act of taking Yrel down as a PVE raid boss, and on that I’ll just reiterate that I don’t believe that the faction war should crop in PVE content. It should be the preserve of optional PVP content, and Blizzard should not force PVE players to experience it. If your heart isn’t in a given conflict, you shouldn’t be forced to participate.

I’m not sure that I can explain WoD, but yes. That’s not how it’s been for most of the game’s runtime, however, and it doesn’t appear to be the case now.

4319

Portraying them in an Antagonistic role isn’t the same as Villain batting (or it shouldn’t be), and having the capacity for flaws, making mistakes, and being manipulated should not be akin to being evil in this setting. Which they are. And as MUCH as you want to get both factions out of eachothers hair here, Kyalin is also the one telling you why that cannot happen. Because the Alliance (and its players) want a piece of the Horde. They’re the ones who have tons of grief. And honestly, if it weren’t for the fact that they must remain flawless paragons of every virtue conceived, it wouldn’t take such elaborate means to just get them to act on their thousands of motives. Sh*t, I even left Turalyon AND Yrel plenty of outs in my little thought experiment.

I don’t see blowing up half the world again as a solution to that imbalance.

4320

This premise is wrong.

4321

Not in current WoW writing philosophy its not. Truly, its not. The Alliance is oversaturated in virtues, and allowed very few tangible flaws. While the Horde is drowning in flaws, but allowed very few avenues towards virtue. To the point where the only virtue a member of a Horde race can really have anymore is how submissive and convenient they are for a member of an Alliance one. That truly is how imbalanced Blizz’s writing has become since Cata. Where the capacity for flaws = evil. Just like being an “Antagonist” also means being “Villain Batted”.

1 Like
4322

We do not have to accept or regard as inevitable said philosophy. I think we can all agree that said philosophy has led to a less satisfying game for everyone.

1 Like
4323

That writing philosophy has dug quite the hole we have to dig ourselves out of to even attempt to upturn the status quo we already have. Where most Horde players who still pay attention to the story are forced to face the reality that every time they are forced by the writers to attack the Alliance; what they are being forced to attack is all that is good an virtuous in this setting. Which by-default makes the Horde and its players all that is evil and flawed. Truly, the only way to upturn this reality (and start digging our way out of that hole) is to allow the Alliance off the chain and unfetter their ability to “React”. Or even allow them to be the proactive ones for once. And it truly should not take me having the Lightbound trick them into acting on their thousand and one motives to get them there. But … even that idea gets pushback from most Alliance players.

Because flawless paragons can’t be tricked; misled; manipulated; or make mistakes. Especially through their faiths (like the Light), since they believe in the “right ones” as far as Blizz is thematically concerned.

1 Like