At this point all that’s left of the Night Elf Chalice is the little round base below the stem.
Thats not what he said.
He specifically pointed toward the villain bat as some here call it.
Where Horde plays the unapologetic antagonist.
I mean its not hard to imagine why where most people here say the Horde should be unapologetic and scoff at any attempt for factions to reconcile their differences and become more collaborative.
Baine is the most hated character among the Horde playerbase and all he did was stop a mindwipe on a forsaken and made like 1/10th gesture of what Andiun or Jaina do on a given day.
That was enough to make him the most notoriously hated “traitor” character among the Horde playerbase.
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Even though I personally think your relocation to Northrend idea isn’t a very good one… it’s at least an idea that we could (and did, sort of) discuss. I’m not even opposed to Alliance participation in this thread, but you can see between this post and the reply I am making, there are about 20 “gotcha” one-liner snippet posts which contribute nothing except to spam up the thread with negativity.
That said, I actually agree wholeheartedly with the premise of your second paragraph. I think the root cause of the BfA problems is bad Horde writing, writing which was so bad that it did spill over into the Alliance’s story, and worse that it was actually so bad the story sometimes felt like it was trying to hide what was happening from the Horde player, while putting on an entirely different show for the Alliance. It’s kind of not surprising that people have such wildly different takes on the story when they were shown two very different things.
I had made a thread some two years ago now which discussed how the Horde’s lack of development and core weakness as a storytelling vehicle made things worse for everybody, because the writers had inadvertently made the Horde the faction of “atrocities and superweapons” which is fun for just about nobody involved. Therefore, I would submit that making the Horde a worthy and nuanced opponent actually would improve the Alliance story dramatically, instead of us re-fighting a spectacularly poorly written battle for the millionth time.
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Yes, it is.
If you think people dislike Baine just because of his response to the Derrick situation you clearly haven’t been paying attention.
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I’ve written about this in other threads, but personally I think the reason why Baine frustrates me so much is that, ironically, his concept is EXACTLY what I’d want to see in a horde character… Except the game only uses those traits as a contrast because the rest of the horde is barreling down Villain Avenue at 10 miles an hour over the speed limit just so they can run him over, before turning around and holding up his bloody body as a meatshield to say “look, not all of us are bad! You wouldn’t punch Baine, would you?” He’s a barometer to measure other people’s goodness, based on whether or not someone’s willing to pet or kick the cow.
And that’s basically his identity to me. And it’s further harmed by the fact that this isn’t the first time the horde’s acted up, which makes you start to question how good Baine can really be in the first place. So unless they detach him from the horde altogether (ruining the “good one” stereotype he’s used for) or make him a damsel in distress, it implies the question “if he’s so good, why isn’t he alliance?”
And that’s just a huge bummer.
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It is not what he says.
As someone who has experienced your purposeful misinterpretations I know what I am talking about.
He was specifying the villain bat and nothing else.
The epic meltdown from Baine rescuing derek was something alright.
But of course we also had the whole Taurajo quotes and his openess to negotiations as indications of being an Alliance character.
I mean Jaina rescued Baine.
Andiun frees Saurfang.
There were no epic meltdowns calling then traitors compared to the reaction towards Baine.
Even his “perhaps we should sue for peace” was a traitorous sign.
So yes. The way Horde fans react to Baine would indicate they enjoy the gunho unapologetic warmongering Horde.
Even here who is supposedly the more level headed Horde fans and reconciliatory gestures are anathema.
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I don’t think anyone has disagreed with this premise. The writing was terrible.
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Horde find Baine so disgusting they sexualize him giving Anduin a piece of his horn, despite…not wanting to be the trope of grinning serial killers.
Yes, it is.
Probably because up until that moment Saurfang had been unapologetically Horde. Baine on the other hand… grievances about him go back much farther than BfA as you pointed out.
He means Alliance players didn’t call Jaina or Anduin traitors.
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Yes but what are these grievances really based on?
The reactions are vitriol and hateful towards the one character that is actually making some gestures and moving the Horde towards being heroes/honourable again.
It seems to me if he was way more bloodthirsty he would have been more popular with the people here asking the Horde be more honourable and level headed when thats exactly what Baine is now by Blizzard standards.
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I totally get what you mean Sarm but the reactions I see from Horde players is not why the rest of the Horde is not being more like him.
It seems its just him and his “good guy actions” that are so rage inducing.
Its not even a meta statement like you are saying. Its more like “how dare he even suggest negotiations!!!”
Like that.
I have heard that before, though. 
In fact, I thought Anduin got a lot of flak for releasing Saurfang while also telling Tyrande that he couldn’t spare any troops for her.
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Not an american here… ergo not historically relevant for me. So why should I have assumed Elluriah was anything but serious in that post?
Better yet, why is he/she participating in this thread if she´s NOT interested in the “rebuild the Horde part”, hmmm? I mean, if his/her contributions can be resumed as “selfish petitions oriented to satisfy her” + “joking over the goal of the thread” me thinks he/she could waste his/her time in more constructive stuff.
Dude, making some Alliance characters racist was HIS proposal, this doesn´t mean it´s the consensus for the rest of the Horde players in this thread (quite the opposite, I´d say most of us discarded that suggestion and rather favored Gantrithor´s one… which ironically keeps the overall image of the Alliance and it´s leaders just as disgustingly pristine as Blizz themselves do).
So don´t try to derail this thread based upon a suggestion that went nowhere, tyvm.
In no point of the OP is said the preferences of the Alliance players MUST be cattered FIRST AND FOREMOST to “fix” the Horde, dude. And that´s the actual problem regarding the 3 or 4 Alliance partisans that do nothing but derail the discussion: for them no suggestion is relevant UNLESS their very personal wishes are cattered and the faction “fixed” in the way most convenient for their own emotional stance. Which is NOT the goal of the thread as explained in the OP -had you actually read it-.
Well, and that “racism” suggestion was discarded just like those -frankly rude and ridiculous- “suggestions” made by people more invested in feeling good about the Alliance by proxy of hurting the Horde were discarded, so what´s your point?
Heck, you VALIDATE my point. If suggestions are rejected, well, then they are rejected and that´s it. Move on people, just like Baal has moved on when people didn´t support his “let´s make the Alliance racist” suggestion, period.
Cause I certainly don´t see him insisting on this point 24/7 like the usual suspects DO insist in their narrowminded biased points.
Is NOT gatekeeping when people REJECTS an idea and the owners of the idea simply refuse to accept “no” as the answer.
That´s on them, not on us. We´re happy to hear CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions on how to fix the Horde, we simply aren´t interested in hearing the n-esim iteration on how the Horde CAN´T be fixed unless the Alliance players manage to fulfill their sadistic revenge dreams first, simple as that.
So yes, the degenerate behaviour is to insist in something when the other party says “no, thanks”.
Dude, when the lore went out of it´s way to show how the VOID -the primary cosmological source that caused the Curse of Flesh in the first place- a “good” thing with the Velves, was when this potential exploration went the way of the dodo.
Dude, we saying “no” to YOUR idea of what redemption means is just that: a rejection of your deffinition of what “redemption” entails, no more and no less. As harsh as this sounds, your opinion is no natural law and we don´t have to support it or else, period.
Accept it and move on.
JUST YESTERDAY we were trying to develop the idea on rebuilding the Horde based upon Gan´s scenario… and what was the contribution of the ususal suspects? To make fun and play the victim card cause we REFUSE to entertain their victim complex!!!
How many different ways do we have to say NO for them to UNDERSTAND it´s meaning? Do I need to say it in Spanish, maybe?
Sorry Sarm, but it´s hard to feel sympathy for someone that admited he´s just here to joke and troll -and he admited it to my face while he tried to continue with the jokester attitude, reason why I figuratively told him to piss off and decided to ignore his posts… cause he is in here just to derail actual discussion some of us DO want to have-.
I´m no bilingual expert, but not knowing english to 100% and trying to hide behind “my translator sucks” is NO excuse… some of us here manage to communicate in other languages apart from english, maybe he can post in his native language and one of us maybe can translate for him.
There are always ways to fix these type of problems, all he needs to do IF he legitimately wants to contribute to the thread in a CONSTRUCTIVE way is to ask for help, period.
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He got called selfish or inexperienced or the usual he is not ready for his position but never really a traitor.
Maybe even he doesnt value Alliance over the Horde but not really the same reaction Baine gets from the Horde players.
The issue with Baine is he’s a good guy to the Alliance and the mouth piece through which the Horde get their wrist slaps from Blizzard for choosing to be Horde players. When what he should be is what Sylvanas should be as well. What really any Horde leader should be when it comes to the faction rivalry.
They should be villains to the Alliance and heroes / good guys to the Horde.
I said that what’s he meant I didn’t say I agreed with it. Anduin, as far as I’m concerned, is a traitor to the Kaldorei at best. He made empty promises and left them to die out cause sieging Lordaeron for his own people and wiping out the Zandalari to protect his own fleet was more important than helping an Ally that he’s in an Alliance with.
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Both of the situations Small brought up had backlash, but people don’t sit around, and still make a big deal out of it. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone, but Horde players complain about Jaina either. Still, you can understand that both of them are doing ‘what’s best’ and it’s how it’s accepted. Baine just gets treated like a traitor, and that’s it by the Horde playerbase. People call him token…
To be fair Alliance players also get disappointed with Jaina and Andiun being nice to the Horde but not in the same way.
There is also the fact that as some Horde players pointed out.
Alliance has a hundred reasons to hate and want to fight the Horde but the same isn’t necessarily true for the Horde and their reasons to fight the Alliance.
So when the Andiun and Jaina get too friendly when the wrongs haven’t been righted people complain or roll their eyes.
But again nothing like the Horde backlash.
Admittedly I’m coming at it from a fully biased horde perspective but Anduin and Jaina aren’t really comparable to Baine for me, and the reason is because Baine himself is just a side-effect of making the horde repeatedly villainous in the first place. Anduin and Jaina, regardless of what they do, at least seem to have a consistent goal (Jaina less so due to narrative flip-flopping) of protecting their own side. Whether that’s fighting the horde, or trying to make peace with it, the overall goal of trying to end a war stays the same.
Baine can’t really benefit from that consistency because the horde’s not looking to reduce casualties or end a war for the betterment of all during Cata/MoP and BFA.
As for him being labeled a traitor, sure. I imagine there are plenty of Ereviens out there who just want to goomba-stomp alliance and don’t care how it’s done, just like some alliance players hate it when Anduin and Jaina hold back instead of going all out. But at least those two characters are consistent with the goals of the alliance as a whole.
I feel like I had a point but I don’t know where I’m going with this anymore. Whoops. So I’m just going to submit and grab a fruit drink.