Ashenvale was not night elven land, though. We know that not all trolls became night elves. We also know that the night elves fought the trolls to take control of Troll Land. It’s the source of troll animosity toward all of elf kind.
So, this circles back to the question: What is the cut off for imperial ownership?
Yes it is.
This was the Highborne, not the modern Kaldorei. The lands currently inhabited by the Kaldorei show Troll Tribes living peacefully within Night Elf territories. They even aided the defense of Mount Hyjal in WC3.
I said it was not. Which is factual objective truth. Night Elves do not predate Trolls. Trolls owned Ashenvale before night elves. Not all Trolls evolved into Night Elves. Night Elves killed Trolls to take ownership of Ashenvale.
Do you have a source on the cut off between night elves and highborne existing as two separate and alien societies during the time of Ashenvale’s usurping?
The vast majority of Trolls that lived there became Kaldorei, and those that did not lived peacefully within Kaldorei boarders. It is an objective, factual truth that Ashenvale is Kaldorei territory.
If you look at the Troll Empire’s map in Chronicle Vol. 1. You see the area surrounding Mount Hyjal was either Dark Troll or unclaimed. The Dark Trolls became Night Elves, and those that did not lived peacefully with the Kaldorei. Ashenvale was never usurped lol.
Is there a source on that? Because a minority of trolls becoming mutated, then warring their way to supremacy makes more sense.
Do you have a source for either of these?
Currently? Absolutely not. It’s been a contested territory since the Year of Our Lord 2,004.
Notably, it was a group of dark trolls living on the borders of the Well of Eternity that evolved into the first night elves.[2][3]
It states the Dark Trolls lived subterranean lives around Mount Hyjal. It also says they were cannibals.
Chronicle Vol 1 says the Dark Trolls were peaceful compared to the other Troll Tribes. it described how they slowly started to abandon their troll heritage and started worshiping a Moon Goddess named Elune.
While sure, skirmished could have happened, it’s never said that there were any wars fought over territory. The lore given more implies just a gradual shift in culture and appearance. I think this is reinforced by the mention of Dark Troll’s peaceful nature, and their willingness to offer their aid in the final level of Warcraft 3, Reign of Chaos.
I think making the claim the Night Elves conquered the territory from other Dark Troll Tribes holds the burden of proof at this point. We have no evidence to suggest that is what happened.
The lore doesn’t state either way what happened. So there’s no point arguing when nobody knows for sure.
Does Chronicles Vol 1 say that the majority of trolls in the region were mutated by the Well of Eternity? Because we already know the Dark Trolls were peaceful, and the Night Elves weren’t.
If anything the peaceful nature of the Dark Trolls is another reason to believe the Night Elves were a regional minority. Had Night Elves outnumbered trolls in the region they would not have been a particularly appealing target and the Dark Trolls naturally peaceful nature would have been able to carry forth. As a minority and mutant freaks, you can be sure the Night Elves were not able to maintain cordial relations, and as a minority they’d be much more likely to be attacked immediately.
Again, this really doesn’t matter to me at all. Even if the Night Elves were originally a regional minority, and the trolls were a supplanted people, that was over 10,000 years ago. Even by the lax standards of WoW’s ridiculously long and stagnant timeline, this is water under the bridge.
Hot take: Anything the Kaldorei might have done to the Dark Trolls that didn’t become Kaldorei doesn’t matter because they aren’t a playable race. No one’s enjoyment of the game had to he ruined for Kaldorei to become the dominant force.
The vast majority of Night Elf fans had to have their enjoyment of the game ruined or at least greatly diminished to service Horde player power fantasies and Human Paladin Deus Vulting.
Trolls aren’t playable?
I mean, it shows the Dark Trolls settled around the Well of Eternity AND Mount Hyjal… And those are pretty far away from each other. This would imply either the Dark Trolls experienced this changed in a wide area, or there was a large scale campaign fought for Mount Hyjal, which there is zero mention of, and In fact, Chronicle mentions explicitly that even Azshara wouldn’t dare attack Hyjal. I don’t see the Wild Gods being too pleased about Night Elves showing up on their mountain and slaughtering their local Dark Troll friends, and just being deciding to replace their dead friends with their murderers…
Which imo makes the Well of Eternity sole responsible for the Dark Troll’s ascension to elves rather unlikely. However, that is the lore we have so I can’t say otherwise yet.
We know the Highborne weren’t peaceful, but we are talking about long before that imperialist culture, born of Arcane might and vanity, came to be.
Again, we have incomplete data and we are filling in the blanks with out own biases. I just think your claim requires proof where there is none, where mine is more likely given the lore we have.
There is no mention of any wars fought with the trolls until the Highborne empire is already firmly established. It makes little sense that there would be, since much of the land the Dark Trolls owned was so little. We see the area around the Well of Eternity, we know what happened to them. Then we see Hyjal… Which again, I do not see Hyjal as a place the Kaldorei took over violently, given their relationship with the Wild Gods.
I don’t think the Night Elves overtaking of the Dark Trolls was a violent one, I don’t think it makes sense and I don’t see any evidence to suggest it.
Well, wowpedia stated only one group of dark trolls became elves.
Wowpedia says the opposite on the Dark Troll page. So that doesn’t mean anything. Chronicle makes no mention of “A single tribe”. it just says the Dark Trolls settled around the Well of Eternity.
And again, there are issues with believing the Night Elves conquered Hyjal from Dark Trolls. Which means either the Well of Eternity changed those on Hyjal as well, or the Night Elves migrated there peacefully.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dark_troll
Notably, it was a group of dark trolls living on the borders of the Well of Eternity that evolved into the first night elves.[2][3]
^ a b c World of Warcraft: Chronicle Volume 1, pg. 93
^ a b World of Warcraft: The Magazine Volume II Issue I, troll lineage chart
Again, that isn’t the wording used in the source material. Not that it matters because:
We’re trying to argue fine details when the lore only gives us broad strokes.
All we’re going to accomplish here is clashing our interpretations and headcanons against each other - and that happens enough in other threads already.
Here’s a paragraph that will illustrate my problem with this reasoning.
“For many centuries, the night elves did. They built a graceful society around the Well of Eternity. The capital of their small nation was called elun’dris, or “the Eye of Elune,” and it was founded on the shores of the fount of power. The night elves also hones their ties with the surrounding woodlands and their myriad inhabitants. Cenarius guided the night elves when necessary, pleased by the wisdom and benevolence that thrummed in their hearts.”
This is chronicles glossing over 500 or more years. So I don’t credit exclusion in chronicles as significant.
Secondly, if the Night Elves were spooked by Mount Hyjal and avoided it, what makes you think the Dark Trolls were spending any time there?
People choosing to play Horde went into it with the Orcs being idiots and settling their capital city on the border of lands they have 0 right to make use of. If they still chose to play Horde then they chose to live with that fact.
Night Elf players pre BfA were not told “Your race will be made to be nothing more than victims and a wheel house of suffering for Horde power fantasy and Human exceptionalism.”