The horde can reinforce ibgy so much faster than alliance can attack it. The horde can reinforce shgy faster than Alliance can defend it leading to natural attrition of the alliance forces.
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I gotta say, you completely hit nail on head and thank you very much for dispelling the myth of Horde dominance in AV.
I donāt see above happening without a change to the Ranking system though.
Tweaking a map will not correct player behaviour either.
There will always be those finding a means to pad their scores. Diminishing the reason to makes more sense.
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Leaving out the parts about how we, as players, were stupid in the gameās infancy.
The game itself has still had 15 years of having the magnifying glass over it. I still do completely agree that it is mostly a mentality thing about which team is willing to do what.
I am definitely taking your data seriously but that is also vanilla data vs classic data. You do have to admit there is a large difference between the two even though this is a museum piece.
Iām lead to believe that this wasnāt a problem in vanilla mostly because the people playing could use the fact that strategies developed by consistently playing against the same people. Cross realm BGs change that heavily since you arenāt getting similar teams on either side. So map balance, class balance, racials, and gear do play a bigger part than they used to.
The reality of what is going on now and questioning why it wasnāt a problem previously when we have had large changes in community is hard to nail down.
This is like saying that youāre using Rat statistics to identify the problem in a Mouse. While similar you may find the problem but you might not find all of the problem to fix its source.
we have learned from our mistakes drastically and need a modern solution for this modern problem. Since we canāt count on anything in the back end fixing this my solution would be to ānut up or shut upā personally. I canāt change the other 39 people that this instance is bound to to think the same way when Iāll only see them once, MAYBE twice, and then never see them again.
you can tell your shamnas to stop chain lighting and start chain healing
Right - so thatās why Iām saying the solution is giving the old AV system where everyone needs to do the objectives or they lose.
This puts it back in the place itās supposed to be since both teams will need to do objectives. Then the perceived map imbalances will make more sense - like the bridge, or that ally get to galv slower. Those are the two natural choke points for both horde and alliance.
If you are really saying go back to AV 1.5 and lets buff all the NPCs 100%, you have my vote.
Sounds awesome to me. I would love to have 90 minute matches summoning Icey Boi, Treesus, and Top Gun.
But, then again, Iām not a ranker. Iām a pvper.
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And Iād love to see that.
Unfortunately the state we are in things like the back door to Dun Baldar fundamentally undermines the Allianceās choke point of bridge to push favor one way while Allianceās forced encounter early into their zone aggravates the problem. Pally bubble jumping for warmasters to leash also undermines the spirit of the BG but that would require them to be able to reach that point.
Iāve been stealth capping IBGY for a couple matches now but it always ends with the same problem. Getting stuck there when pugs eventually move up. We can take the GY but pushing out of it is much harder.
When horde come up from their cave they can stage themselves on a hill with a broken tower that overlooks the chokepoint, Letting their ranged have free reign to attack GY defenders. If alliance attempt to push towards FWGY they will be immediately split by the horde pilling up on top of that hill and easily wiped.
Probably the only way to combat this would be camp horde in their cave, but they could easily squeeze past before we reach it. This is why alliance have to rush to FWGY and take it with most of their team. The problem with that is that it doesnāt flow naturally with pugs.
Yep, I agree all those issue need to be fixed.
Personally feel like this is a big one. Beyond this itās that Drek / Van are not really in their 1.12 state - before 1.12, when they had slimmed up AV but not done all the changes (honour gains? That was definitely reduced during 1.12 so I feel like it was something else), Van and Drek still had 25% damage / health relative to which Marshall / Masters they had up, per unit.
This was in place, to my memory, to prevent the entire thing weāve been seeing: Skipping NPCs to kill final boss.
I recall being shocked to see the buffs missing, and the story I hear is that the rebuild 1.12 map from Private servers (which we know to be the base of this) had the buffs removed to encourage the rush and draw people to AV.
Reverting Drek / Van to their proper state, and having Drekās wolves leash to him properly (I recall them doing that, because they represent 1/3 of is overall stats), would change a lot.
the marshal/warmaster buffs were added in 2.4
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Damn, my many months spam leveling in AV must deceive me. Both of them feel very, very soft though. 1.12 scaling and gear is probably all that is. Seems extreme.
Makes sense though, the speed runs become common after 2.0 and not before then.
I agree with the solutions of the OP, that we need a pre 1.12 version of AV.
I will add, that the alliance doe snot want a 7 minute AV. the alliance expects a 7 minute AV. Maybe because the premades established this expectation, but certainly because this version of AV is conductive a 7 min AV.
The premades just recognized that fact and did what all players do, found the path of least resistance and most efficiency, we cannot blame players for doing this.
Nevertheless, if the AV changes to a Pre 1.12 version with objectives it will simply eliminate the expectation because everyone will know that a 7 min AV is no longer possible. And people will adapt to the new reality and try to be better within this new context.
Right now, most alliance players know that 7 min AV is possible and all Pugs are trying to emulate the Premades, by trying over and over and over and over again loss after loss after loss after loss. In the mean time getting demoralized, frustrated and building up negativity against the game its devs and other players.
It is not a healthy situation for any game. Intervention for a solution is necessary, if things do not change in the coming 2 weeks still.
There is a way to Win this version of AV of course for alliance, but it is never 7 minutes.
You spawn at SHGY, and we break you down until we decide to take it, and then choke you at IWBā¦we dont win at IBGY, we are there a fraction of the time.
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Whaā¦what? I had to read this several times and it still makes no sense.
We spawn at a SHgy, how can the horde reinforce it faster? They have to run to it all the way from IBgy or SFgy (if we do not have it contested).
No noā¦the problem here is that Alliance does not fight hard enough and with intent. The horde doesā¦at this point.
The alliance is used to jump on a mount and go for a park walk to Drekā¦time to change the approach 
this is the current issue. The resistance to change. We are going to lose for as long as people expect a 7 min AV.
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The 1.12 version of AV would be better if it was played in two segments.
Offense and Defense with a timer.
First, one faction is randomly chosen to be the attackers while the other is the defender. Their goal is either kill the opposing faction leader or get as many towers and LTs killed within the time limit. When the timer is finished the BG resets and you switch and the opposing faction is now attacking. After Say the time limit is 25 minutes, if they kill the leader in 21mins then the second timer will only be 21 minutes rather than 25 as you must do it faster.
Itās not a perfect system but it would be better than what we currently have.
^ This - it was added to address this and make the factions whittle down the 600 reinforcements.
hmmm, I personally do not like Timers, or even liked the reinforcements mechanic of Retail.
I was there to the fights at Galv until reinforcements expended days (on alliance side). And it was not really that much fun.
Besides, we can play that version in Retail ā¦ya?
The Best AV experience for me was pre 1.12. You could not just rush the Generals, you needed to take down towers and control GY at key moments of the thrust. Galv and Balinda were as hard as Drek and Vann are now, and the generals even harder with bigger escorts that were reduced as Towers were conquered etc. The summons were Trully Epic! The Druids or Rams or Wolves were a force to be reckoned with. Taking Towers and Bunkers was not easy either like it is now.
And all that wrapped in a PvP context. Truly amazing Classic Experience.
I agree the best version of AV was pre-1.12
However, even that version is not great and is very flawed.
AV is completely broken and the concept of having two teams both attacking and defending at the same time encourages bad gameplay and a stalemate.