There has been people (including myself I think) that have suggested this change unironically before BUT that was on the topic of hammer of wrath being damn useless. No, I dont want more buttons going away.
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Ret is awesome and I hope sandbags such as yourself won’t change that or be the loudest minority that screams their lungs out.
Go play another spec then idk what to tell you.
Go get PhD in arcane mage. Leave Ret alone.
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Yea let ret continue to be braindead.
No I wont, Ive played this spec probably way longer than you and all your 10.0.7 reroller friends.
It is a shame truly
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Really?
That’s surprising.
Although, when they buffed Herald even though it was still some % behind Templar, it was within the single digits, at least when I compared them at the time.
Idk what it would look like now, I’d have to sim.
But my point is, DH interaction was accounting for a big part of Templar’s edge, if DH is dead in the water, that edge just went away.
Which would make them much closer than they use to.
They killed DH but they didn’t unerf the Empyrean hammer damage that came with the interaction.
Looking again at the sets, I now realize that Templar bonus have more conditions than Herald.
35% more damage on HoL, sure, but the ability to cast again still ask we gather the HP (not that big a problem but it compounds), 3 additional side target is purely cleave/aoe.
Then 20% increased crit damage is conditional on crit and then another 50% chance to give additional stack on the crit
Meanwhile Herald is “here’s more damage” and “after the damage, get damage and keep your beams”.
ah okay so this just all an act to get attention.
Carry on them! My bad for interrupting your tantrum spotlight.
I wonder what “pound of flesh” Blizzard would require to dramatically change up the spec. Reduce or remove most utility spells? Much slower gameplay but harder hitting? A new paradigm that subverts the “holy warrior” archetype?
It is quite easy actually. Because prot warrior just went through it (although its a very mild example).
Prot warrior was flooding with resources, gcd capped between spamming shieldslam (that had infinite resets) ignore pain (because prot was flooding with rage specially mountain thane). Basically ret.
So for ret its the same. Reduce resource income, delete talents aiding to this one button gameplay and buff spells acordingly.
A slower pace rotation doesnt mean sitting waiting for spells to come off cd, it means that my button presses matter, that have impact in my performance and that mechanically all the moving parts are under my control. It can be done but I doubt theres someone competent enough to do it.
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no sims yet, dont focus on numbers, focus on tierset feel and make feedback from that.
i dont think dh is dead in the water, ya it sucks and got gutted completely but theres nothings else in our tree thats worth taking. vm still useless.
a dps should have a solid skill ceiling, not have a skill ceiling based on utility that you can manage by looking at boss timers. usually this line of thinking is why ret is always dogwater in the start of the season and then giga buffed towards the middle when prog is done. this isnt healthy for the spec.
no one is asking to turn ret into a giga phd spec wher eyou had to synce 4 cds together (you already do this rn in df and tww btw which is funny sl ret tramatized people that much) a skill ceiling can be as simple as nerfing generator damage, hopo generation and increasing spender damage.
its crazy how they remove spellblock because they didnt want players to feel like theyre studying for keys while blessings of protection/spellwarding does the same thing.
why is utility rets skill ceiling when it was actively stated that they dont like that type of skill ceiling for prot warrior and dk with its grips.
I’ve been running Oops all procs or Ret Roulette since I came back in legion.
Current TWW playstyle isn’t any worse than early DF for how much you GCD cap - and honestly I don’t see why people want divine hammer to still be a thing when its a clunky third button to start up a dps rotation.
Seraphim will always just be ret slice-n-dice and one of the worst aspects of rogues we could have taken because juggling a buff isn’t fun.
I’m fine with type writer ret, and would suggest people that want downtime in their rotation to go play classic.
But the class could be better - yea our spenders generally have no real weight to them because much like Fire Mage and their Pyroblasts - we’re shooting one off every couple of seconds.
With the heavy synergy burdens placed on crusader strike and judgment for talent synergy would a more Slam style of game play be what the community wants? a frostbolt ability that you hit repeatedly instead of cycling through 4 generators while the other spells get moved to specific functions.
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Umm, my dawg, that’s the very definition of “dead in the water.”
Did you forget one of the very reasons why we didn’t take DH, because it was originally on a 2-min cooldown?
And I really doubt the nerfed interaction with EH as an engine is gonna be worth the Talent point which can now go somewhere else. I mean, you don’t even get a full second anymore when casting a spender.
I will honestly be surprised if we actually keep DH on our rotation.
What can I say, from the success this topic is having I would say that it is not just me and Christtel who think so. MANY Ret players (and especially HISTORICAL players) think that currently ret has arrived at a gameplay enormously distant from what it has ALWAYS been.
I would like to remind you how I started this discussion in the first message that you continue to ignore in my opinion, but I’ll report it below:
What can I say, even the Class Writer of wowhead gave indications about it. I hope his opinion was taken into much more consideration than mine… so NO we are not a minority!! but I hope we will become quite loudest!!! 
Let’s get into the merits of these statements.
Explain to me how, for example, the simple idea csaa is in no case a spell that can hit 5 targets makes ret suddenly become a spec that requires a PhD to play it?
Show me immediately the universities that give PhDs so easily that I’ll sign up immediately 
Have we reached the point that in front of some reasoning on ret paladin (I repeat also the class writer wrote) and we counter with insults? Only with irony and stand up comedy? Without arguing?
“Ret is awesome”
I agree
I wouldn’t have spent about a /played of almost 800 Days on it. 
But the Ret that I have always been has always been a class that has always respected the basic philosophy of building our precious HP wisely and spending them wisely (If you don’t know this “Vibe” well I feel sorry for you) currently there is no merit in building HP, since you often find yourself for example:
Having 0 HP, pressing BoW, finding yourself with 3 HP since csaa has been working under the table (if he only did this it would still be acceptable) and with 3 HP you go to press Divine storm obviously but hey! why are my HP still 3? and yet I cast DS what’s happening? I try again, I take DS again and, Wtf? why can’t I consume them? ah damn before it was proced EP and now DP, now I’m at 4 HP because csaa continued to work quietly, come on now I’ll take DS again… finally I consume my 3 HP but… CLING: Wtf BONUS SET PROC!! SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM (yes there is so much spam because while I was using the set bonus I proced a couple of times both EP and DP again!) … this is not “awesome” … not to mention how often AoW procs now that Csaa hits 5 targets every 1.5 - 2 seconds…
Try playing with talents like that:
CYEAN/WrsXv0CO5mzTm8Icl8KAAAAYAgRmltZmtltZGLGzyGbDAAAAAAzWaGGmZsNDmthZb2mZZjZgxMssx2AAzysNzMLNzMtNLz2MAgNgBADmhB
And tell me what sensations it gives you and above all tell me if someone immediately runs to Give you a PhD, send me the photos so I can send you the graduation present 
If I’m carrying on discussions on these topics it’s only because I LOVE RET PALADIN SO MUCH, what pushes me to continue to raise this topic is because I really care about the class, and if a historical player like me currently cries his heart out playing the current META gameplay of the Rets and sees that nothing moves to at least make it comparable to the existing alternative in talents (the legendary TS Build) well I would say that I can only indulge the love I have for my class and try to convey mine, and that of all those who think like me to the Devs, who I hope at least read us <3
I sincerely hope you won’t copy and paste your previous post as a reply ^^
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That’s the funny part friend 
We didn’t originally take dh cause back then it drained hopo over time now it extensions per hopo spent which is a lot better
Frankly if I’m being real, vm is still very weak as a talent
Ignore it.
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In the current Ret in Pure Single Target the degeneration that Csaa brings is significantly reduced since Blessed Champion is not used… so similar to the “Ret I would like”
This situation should be the perfect opportunity to highlight Hammer of Wrath (yes, him!) and the talent that should enhance it the most, namely Vanguard Momentum (VM) with the brand new and beautiful mastery now also HoW brings additional damage. On paper everything is perfect because How shines but… this does not happen… in my opinion it could be resolved like this:
There is a talent in the Templar tree unknown to most, namely Endless Wrath, completely ignored and understated since its nodal counterpart is definitely stronger.
BUT if properly modified in “now that I’m proc you can ignore the 20% hp limit of How for X seconds” doing so would synergize with VM since once Endless Wrath is active you can launch both How charges given by VM…
Yes they are just fantasies currently Ew is the copy of the How proc given by Final verdict and no one has ever taken it into consideration.
PS. but wtf!? you said you hate CSAA and you would forever want TS all your life… Well with changes like that and with the vision I have of TS that baseline covers 5 Targets (as it does now with Blessed Champion) I would see TS well in AOE/M+ scenarios… but in purely ST scenarios I would be fine to set it aside BUT only if in favor of a greater use of Hammer Of Wrath!! so as to keep the number of buttons constant (currently in aoe/M+ How we almost completely ignore it)
PPS. Let’s not forget that it is always possible to choose neither CSAA nor TS and go back to the old Crusader Strike, for a while in DF there was a build like this!
Guys what if they changed divine wrath to be:
Hammer of wrath increases the duration of your next avenging wrath or crusade by .5 seconds. 1 second for critical hits. Maximum duration increase of 20 seconds
Buff lasts 30 seconds (as in the buff ends after not being refreshed for 30 seconds)
I understand that, my dawg. You’re right concerning the old interaction of DH, but when you say a talent is “gutted completely”, that phrase is the very definition of talent being “dead in the water”.
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It is however a keen observation that this specific point doesn’t really have a meaningful alternative.
no, mad paragon lovers out
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ohhh whatever, it still would be better than a literal trap talent lol
What about this:
Casting hammer of wrath on a target under the effects of judgement empowers the judgement, causing your next holy power spender to deal an additional 30% damage
i mean it would still be a trap talent. increasing wings that much you could obtain 100% uiptime on wings with rg. so that would mean it would not work with rg anyways