This is why I like being in a smaller guild, where its more
GM “Ok guys __________ isn’t coming tonight, we need a 3rd healer or we don’t raid. John you mind changing specs?”
JohnOliver “Ok boss”
Less worrying about ok we need a druid for this fight, a disc priest would be helpful here, or we definitely need lolwarr to change over to his shammy for this fight.
Provides statistics to substatiate what he’s saying
“You just want your spec to be bad, I can’t dispute the fact that they have little to no utility, but they see fringe play in world first races, so you should be happy”
I want the spec to be great, but it’s missing the tools to be so. Holy is by far my favorite Healing spec, and for you to tell me how I feel is presumptuous, rude, and wrong.
I Mythic Raid as Holy on my Priest. They are by far the worst progression healer, except in very specific fights.
And being good in 1-2 fights as opposed to other healers being good in 9-10 fights is a pretty stark difference. If a DPS spec does half the damage of every other class, but are top damage in 2 fights, does this mean they aren’t a worse DPS despite being worst in 80% of situations? You live in a fantasy world of your own creation, every high end raider, every content creator, everyone who has first hand experience agrees, Holy is the bottom healer (except in PvP where they are okay), and needs buffs/changes to bring them up.
I don’t know if you are aware of the term “parsing” but it’s where you let a 1 DPS do all the AOE while everyone else doesn’t use a single AOE spell so that one DPS can get a Rank 1 or High parse. Healers do it too. Those “top logs” you are looking at are fights where the other healers ONLY heal if someone is going to die so that one healer can get crazy high HPS. Everyone does it (because it’s fun, honestly) but it skews logs and makes them inaccurate. This is done on farm content, which is why you need to look at logs during progression.
He didn’t, though. He just said that the statistics are wrong because ‘early on in a raid tier they’re bad though’
Which also just isn’t true. If we move the scale to pre-nerf Nyalotha logs, Holy’s actually #2 behind only Paladin. This specific poster has consistently said things that just aren’t correct, literally didn’t understand how warcraftlogs sets up its M+ data, or was just dishonest about it (I still don’t know which). Because he won’t accept that when it comes to Throughput, Holy is consistently good. Even if when it comes to almost anything else they are bad.
No I don’t. I just understand that Holy has good throughput, which you refuse to recognize because you REALLY REALLY want holy to be worse than it is because you’ve deluded yourself into thinking that if holy is bad at everything, then maybe Blizzard will buff them. But joke’s on you, the only place they’re going to buff them is throughput. Remember when I told you that in that age old thread? And did you see that they got a literal % buff to their throughput as their most recent balance change?
But I still disagree with this absurd notion that they don’t work in raids. I’ve also been a mythic raider in several expansions. I haven’t touched my priest in a while, and DPSed in BfA, but I absolutely understand how to read logs, and I seem to know a great deal more about how aggregate data works than you do.
The fact you thought that people parsing for top logs was a gotcha is hilarious to me, as if it was a granted that I was specifically looking at the top logs, lmao.
This isn’t where they are lacking. Have you seen a single post saying Holy needs to heal more?
No one said this, you keep misrepresenting what we say.
Wow, really? I never could have guessed… /s
I HAVE played my Priest…and other Healers, the difference in extremely noticeable. The argument isn’t that Holy trash and can’t do anything, it is that…
Holy is objectively worse. This wouldn’t be much of an issue if normal balancing happened but we have been the worst in M+ every patch for 4 years, and have been the worst in Raids for majority of those 2 expansion as well. They had moments in the sun but they were extremely brief.
Worst is used in relative terms, I don’t understand how people like you don’t get this. Holy isn’t a useless trash fire, it’s a great fun spec, but it’s missing the basic tools that every other healer has…cough…cough…damage reduction…cough cough…raid utility.
Meters aren’t the game.
No, but I recall several saying that they had bad throughput in comparison to other healers, really. More than one was from you, in fact. You’ve also said multiple times that they have bad raid throughput as soon as you’re at 20 man content in mythics.
Uhuh. I suppose when you’re saying Holy priest can only do slightly more HPS than other healers in 30 man content and nowhere else, you’re saying they have great throughput! That makes a lot of sense, ok.
Second time you’ve said this, so let’s look at the ACTUAL data for healer throughput at the start of each mythic raid tier.
Uldir:
At the start of the raid tier, they were 3rd, behind mistweaver and discipline. First balance patch, Holy overtakes both and becomes first. From there, Discipline and Holy maintain top healers in the raid.
Battle of Dazar’alor:
Holy priest starts the tier at the top and stays that way for 3 months until Holy paladin makes them #2 in late may.
Crucible of Storms:
The wackiest raid tier by far, especially considering there’s so few logs. Holy priest started that tier at 3rd in throughput, and dropped far below the rest later.
The Eternal Palace:
The only raid tier that supports what you said. Holy started this tier lackluster, and by the time it was on farm and everyone was geared, they were 2nd.
Nyalotha:
Started the raid tier at second. Very quickly moved above the rest of the healers a couple weeks in. Maintained that top spot for a long time, only moving to 2nd again later.
We can do this for legion too, but the story looks much the same. Holy’s always had really great throughput in raid. It’s all they bring and they are very good at it. Normally, if they drop below anyone it’s because that fight has heavy stacking, or another healer got some astounding buffs (like the Paladin glimmer playstyle) that shoots them to the top.
Someone entered a thread about what Holy’s Niche was, and replied to me talking about throughput and flexibility to say “Lol their niche is that disc is betterrr” And when I responded to that to say ‘OK, but disc does suffer in several fight conditions, and Holy doesn’t have a fight condition that’s specifically bad for them, and that’s their strength’ you decided to argue about holy isn’t good at throughput.
Don’t act like this throughput angle came from nowhere and that I was saying Holy is some god tier healer that’s better than all others. YOU SPECIFICALLY WERE SAYING THIS:
And you’re FLAT WRONG about it. The reason Holy isn’t taken in world first progression has NOTHING TO DO WITH THEIR THROUGHPUT. Yes. I’m glad we agree. But don’t pretend like 3 posts ago you weren’t saying something completely different.
I’m sorry where exactly did I say Holy has less Throughput?..
^ Was it here? Hmmm, no I said we do more…
I said they were “near the bottom” and was referring to overall raid performance towards getting the kills, ie Progression. Though, I do concede that I could have worded it much better and the generalizing brush I used was very vague and potentially misleading.
I am not, I did not say less than every healer, though once again I worded this poorly. The point is if Holy is the “Thoughput Healer” then it should have more throughput in almost every situation. But it doesn’t.
So 1* tier of being undisputed #1… out of 5 raids… and there are 5 healers…OH!!! So average. Yup, 100% the Throughput Healer, Waaaaay above the rest, totally proved me wrong.
*and a half, counting Ny’alotha, but corruption kind of broke the game, so I don’t see this as being indicative of actual healer performance
Holy’s HPS flutters around the same as the other Healers, so the idea that it is designed as a Throughput healer remains nonsense. Why would the Healer who is supposed to have the most throughput not have the most throughput majority of the time?
The 25 man raid remark was meant to convey that Holy only consistently has more throughput in 25+ man raids, outside that it’s all a toss up. But our abilities also increase Healing taken, so that bloats the HPS, and we don’t have any DR, and prevented damage doesn’t show up on meters, so the effective HPS of the other healers is higher than the numbers.
The fact remains, Holy is not a Throughput Healer, it is a “Lacks Utility” Healer.
It’s hilarious to me that you picked that when later you quote yourself:
When it’s pretty clear that’s not true.
No, Holy was #1 or #2 in several of those raids, and #2 only to Holy paladin which saw massive buffs and a whole insane playstyle change through borrowed power. And they’re keeping VERY CLOSE in HPS there. Both specs are pretty far ahead of the others, but I forgot you don’t actually look at these charts, my bad.
Because it doesn’t, and that’s not what was even said in this thread. I said their throughput is very good and they have no weak fights. That’s flatly true. Holy doesn’t have scenarios where their throughput suffers because the fight demands something different of them. They’re consistent performers because they have throughput tools for every situation. They’re “throughput healers” in the sense that they have every throughput tool you would need, and yes, they also are one of the highest overall throughput in the game, and the raid performance at the beginning of each tier shows that.
Holy priest mains are the worst, honestly.
And here I thought that this was entirely due to Mastery being good when people are taking a ton of damage during progression, and near-garbage on farm where people are already topped off 3 (not to mention 6) seconds after the damage hits.
Holy priest alts don’t understand how the class really works, honestly.
These are the same type of people who, during MoP, claimed that we were competitive with Druids. Hilarious! They were apparently playing with the world’s most casual resto druids, that didn’t know how to use the magic mushroom or where the wild growth spell was.
I’ve said it before: The forums are not flooded with posts by Holy priests about how awful their raid performance is. This is what the Legion class update fixed.
HOWEVER, if you think holy has no weaknesses in its healing toolkit, you haven’t been paying any attention to our single target throughput/mana costs* (I’ll have another look at this when I get my healers to level 60, but prior to the patch Holy was certainly the worst at dealing with heavy tank damage, easily OOM’ing before anyone else, and the new Apotheosis rework might address this). You might not notice it during raids, since other healers are there to pick up your slack.
The big problems we face now are primarily related to Mythic+ and the metagame associated with that format, the fact that our toolkit is one of (if not the) worst for that content. There are changes upon us this patch, its too soon to know if the affix dispel changes are going to fix the issue (I don’t think its enough, but I’m willing to wait and see).
And no, I don’t think our raid performance is problematic. We’ve been overall quite well off in BFA.
Holy’s niche is being versatile.
Holy has the most pathetic single target healing I’ve ever seen. It legit cannot top people through burst at all, what the hell?
Interesting data coming in:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/397128790272376832/768110551779639326/unknown.png
Holy Paladin dropped to the very bottom place and Holy Priest/Resto Shaman moved to the top.
I can’t link images, but if anyone can repost it’d probably be easier.
It has to do with your gear level (and don’t take this as me nitpicking or anything). The difference between say iLvl 90 and iLvl 110 can be like 25% more healing just from INT alone. Moving up to iLvl 120+ it’s like 10-15% more healing. If you run tier 3 Spirit of Preservation essence and 30%+ crit you can get a 60-70% passive crit chance on Flash Heal.
I’m doing M+ 20-22s now (even though they’re pretty nerfed) and I can power through the burst damage mainly through Flash Heal, Heal, Surge of Light Procs, Serenity, etc. I don’t even run Apotheosis anymore because I barely ever used it. I just run Light of Naaru which stacks with Promise of Deliverance.
It’s a common complaint in shadowlands beta, so I’m going to take those peoples complaints over someone overgearing the entire game with azerite and essences.
Well, if that’s your excuse to explain why you can’t perform on the level of others than by all means… All I can say is I offered some genuine advice. I came back in August and worked my way up through the iLvls and saw how much easier healing got as my iLvl increased. It’s going to be the same in Shadowlands.
Holy has always been a basic - do everything HPS-wise class.
Honestly though Legion m+ as a holy priest left a bad feeling due to how squish we were early on compared to other healers. There was a time when Guardian Spirit was broken too back then. ( it was when I swapped back to my shaman and did some MW monk stuff for once )
They didnt really address it in BfA so I kinda avoided playing my priest and it looks like they had similar issues.
Playing them post Shadowlands changes seems smoother, PW shield might be useful to offset the squish or us too. I might also use the covenants to offset the squish or get the Fae cheat death seed as a backup though. Power Infusion coming back is going to be nice, instant POM just feels SO much better!
With what I will be doing ( mostly heroic aotc and the weekly m+15 and maybe some light mythic progg at the end ) so holy priest should be fine.
I’m wondering where things are going to settle when the dust clears (i.e. azerite traits go away and we get to the bottom of ilvl in a new expansion).
There’s still more tuning to be done, as well.
Also, Caithra (along with a couple of other people here) has no idea what gameplay is like outside being overgeared and running with a guild group. His/Her opinions are colored by that, and those experiences are almost certainly not going to coincide with what you experience, unless you are in the same boat.
Not really. I ran 100+ M+ dungeons entirely pugged and I only came back to the game in August. No guild would even touch me initially with a 10 ft pole because I wasn’t geared and had no current raid experience at the end of the expansion. For any returning player this is a fairly depressing point to be in.
Even worse I didn’t even have an IO score and I had to work my behind off to get gear, IO score, etc. and it took me about 3-4 weeks of playing every single night to start seeing real progress. The reputations grinds were awful in particular just to get my flying mount. The daily quests required just to hit revered… augh.
So I literally got to see how the game was in blues and doing M+ 5 all the way to 15 as my gear slowly went up in progression. I started off in all blues with like 250k hp (probably equivalent to 10k hp now). I grinded all the dungeons then heroics then LFR and M+… didn’t really get much upgrades from raids other than trinkets. Eventually I was able to start grinding 5 mask visions solo (done enough to socket a few times) playing shadow.
You’re entirely at the mercy of the RNG weekly Mythic box RNG and I’ve only gotten 3 actual upgrades from it and a lot of duplicated garbo. The rest of my 125+ gear pieces are from titan residue which is just 2 weeks of guaranteed M+ 15 for each piece. I’m pushing higher keys than I did prior to pre-patch (20+) and it’s all pugs… mostly my own key I’m running.
So I literally don’t know who else here can raise their hand and say they made that much progress in 2 months. I wanted to learn to play better so I went to one of the top M+ holy priests for IO score for the season and got advice from them.
If somebody is telling you: you can do this because I’m an example or know how it is, but you’re like nah man its the class… then it isn’t the class. It’s your own mentality holding you back. That’ll hold you back in real life too.
Weird opinions imo, considering that holy is absolutely CRUSHING it for raid healing.
I only raid mythic, do medium high keys (20-23), and rbg’s, so take my opinion accordingly (i.e. no experience and I could be wrong about everything else), but I’d assume that holy would be even stronger in heroic raiding and is probably untouchable atm for groups of 30.
Automatic Jak seems to think holy is the best healer at the moment, and based on my raid’s holy priest doing nearly twice as much healing as our lower healers on spread out fights I’d agree. Logs also seem to agree.
Holy has always been pretty good at everything, leaning more toward being great at big aoe, and with the exception of lacking much of anything for utility for m+. However, holy has always been the best healer for bursting … but other than bursting weeks … yeah, holy is sorely lacking for m+.
You don’t need to defend yourself bro. You got yourself organized, didn’t make excuses about your class and have at it.