No one has a problem with people getting gear on par with heroic raids from mythic+ content or even PvP. As those actually require some effort to be successful at. There is no effort in completing four daily quests and getting gear on part with heroic raids.
4 Likes
First off… Its not about what anyone else is getting - its about what I’m getting.
Your OP makes the the point I’ve been trying to make in almost all of these threads.
THE GEARING SYSTEM DOENST SCREW THE NON-RAIDERS AND IT DOESN’T IMPACT THE MYTHIC RAIDERS - ITS SCREWS THE MID-LEVEL, TAIL END HEROIC GROUPS.
I’m in a guild that has 10-15 people show up for heroic raid 2x a week. We clear a boss every 2 weeks on average - currently 7/9 BoD.
For 3/4 of the guild there is not one drop in the remaining raid that is an upgrade.
OK, so how does it screw these groups?
Less raiders in the pool because less people feel they need to push for gear.
Less of a rewarding experience for mid-level players, because there are no upgrades or rewards from the content we are pushing.
So while, no, I don’t care specifically about what ilvl other people get for what they do…
I do care that less people are available or willing to push content.
And I do care that for 6-8 weeks I’ve had nothing drop that has been an upgrade in raid - not just for me, but for anyone in the group.
I do care that 3 weeks of wipes on a heroic boss only produced 2 items that were instantly DE’d.
Its not a rewarding system.
In Legion, these catch up mechanisms kicked in much later - to the best of my memory. Normal level loot came from Emissaries, while the heroic gear dropped much later as catch up for the next raid tier - not for the current one.
5 Likes
Yes it does. I’ll quote what I said in a different thread:
And all versions of raids are end game, depending on how you play the game.
You’vegot some seriously poor delusions about this game.
Sorry, but saving 12 turtles in about two minutes is not the same as spending weeks learning a raid of any level.
The ignore those threads instead of insulting people.
1 Like
That’s an interesting viewpoint I hadn’t considered. The availability of other gear sources shortens the time between hibernation periods for guilds like yours (and mine).
But, is the right answer to slow down gear acquisition by strangling the source? How would you feel about increasing the difficulty of other sources.
Hiding 400 item level loot behind extra ordinary individual challenges, like the mage tower in terms of difficulty.
The issue with all of this gear that rains from the sky is that it makes raiding feel pointless. As with the guy above, when my Heroic group first killed Jaina, none of us needed loot from her because we were decked out in gear from M+ or Titanforged WQ or Warfront gear. Killing the final boss of this tier felt boring and unimportant because there was nothing that came from that success. And now we’re barely interested in farming her because she has nothing for us. My entire raid was fully geared before the end of the tier.
That is a problem. That should not be happening, not until the next raid comes out. Killing a final boss should be exciting and rewarding, not “meh, I guess that’s cool” like a lot of us were. If other people are getting gear equal to my effort, whatever, but for us to be outgearing the current raid before finishing it is a huge issue with progression and the sense of accomplishment.
Also, I don’t really appreciate the statement of Heroic raiders just being demo runners of the current raid. That’s rather insulting to the work and effort it takes to clear Heroic right now.
4 Likes
I think the simple solution is restore “epic” and “rare” gear to have some meaning again…
M+, Emissary Cashes, and Battle Fronts can all still drop 400 ilvl - just as blues
Raids get purples of appropriate ilvl. Maybe purple versions for M+15’s or higher.
Everything else is greens.
This lets non-raiders have power progression, but lets the raid drops have more meaning.
On 2 toons I never raided with I have pieces of Heroic BoD loot… Not 400 ilvl from another source - actual items from the Heroic BoD loot table.
It just feels bad… I’m still having fun pushing the raid, but no upgrades means no reclears. No upgrades means no rewards other than “that sense of accomplishment”… sorry, but its bad design - multiple difficulties, multiple sources of rewards, should scale differently based on the effort.
What if the difficulty was equatable?
Getting heroic level gear from things that aren’t equal in difficulty to heroic raiding is certainly a problem. You claim mythic raiding is endgame but realistically heroic is the end game for many many more players.
If world content was actually engaging and had any semblance of difficulty then sure the rewards it gives can be great but as of now mostly everything that gives heroic raid level gear is afkable and mindless. I really don’t feel deserving getting the 400 piece from a warfront I just afked. There shouldn’t really be content you can afk and win that gives decent gear rewards imo.
2 Likes
Yep, the problem with heroic raiding is that the loot table is filled with ilvl 400 azerite gear that anybody who does M+ regularly won’t need, as well as the absence of tier set bonuses to chase after. And while the lack of motivation to do such content is a problem, it’s not because you’re salty that a rando got a 425 titanforge!
2 Likes
The challenge in world content is time. The challenge in m+ is coordination and execution. The challenge in raiding is logistics and other people. Imho, they are equatable. Just different.
1 Like
The challenge in world content isn’t time, that’s an excuse. Everything in an MMORPG requires time, world content is the least time consuming aspect of WoW. You’re cherry picking things, the challenge for raiding is time/getting and keeping players/making sure everyone is good enough to clear content/etc. it’s not just one thing that makes raiding difficult or mythic+ difficult. You spend much more time raiding or doing m+ if you’re dedicated to it then you do with world content. You can spend 30m a night and complete all world content in the game throughout the week, you can’t do the same for raids/m+.
Nothing makes world content difficult atm. I can afk a warfront or Islands or world quests and get some decent gear. That shouldn’t be possible. Make the content engaging with a small semblance of difficulty so the rewards can be earned rather than given.
3 Likes
Well, if they didn’t add scaling onto overworld mobs to “Challenge” raiders who are doing world quests, most of this gear stuff probably wouldn’t be an issue.
Who cares if overworld quests are super easy for a raider? Isn’t that the whole point of raiding and getting super end tier gear?
Leave the overworld quests alone for those who don’t care about playing Diablo Rifts in Wow, or Raiding.
Nothing is more annoying that not feeling like your getting stronger or making any progress when you’re gear is clearly getting better.
I willing to accept that’s your opinion.
In mine, they are not equitable at all.
2 Likes
It’s not just about that however world quests are easy for most ilvls/players. Not just raiders. My 385 alt has no problem with any end game content. You can afk warfronts and win, you can afk islands and win, you can afk LFR and win, you can afk WQs and win. It’s not about the content being easy, it’s about it being too easy.
I don’t care if world content gives good rewards to non-raiders. I just dislike that the world content is unengaging and mindless.
Why would you afk any of those? Besides just being a crappy human being? (Also, people don’t actually get away with AFKing as often as you might believe, people generally take exception to freeloaders and boot them)
People have been afking through stuff since literally vanilla, yet, now it’s a problem because “People can afk through stuff and get free gear”
World quests give gear to catch people up to be able to do end game content, because believe it or not, that’s -all- wow has going for it right now, is end game content.
No one wants to go back through old raids to try to gear up new players, they’d rather just say “Whatever, come back when your item level is X, or you’ve completed Y”
Guilds don’t go out of their way to help people get to these points anymore, they just expect you to have it.
And World quests slowly give catch up gear. It’s not like World quests are giving you 400 item level gear the moment you hit level 120.
There are warfront bonuses are pretty high up there, but still not as high as the harder content.
It takes -alot- of “Brainless” world questing to get remotely to the same levels as people who do Mythic+ or raid.
It’s not like blizzard literally hands people a full suit of 400 item level gear the moment they hit 120.
All the caches, all the world quests, and all the bonuses are based to your current item level, if your item levels 300 at 120, your getting like 320-330 gear if your lucky.
People greatly exaggerate how powerful of gear World quests give out IMHO.
Like for me, my Average Item level right now is 380, I’m not getting 400 item level stuff from anything but the darkshore boss (Which only drops 3 items, and good luck getting one of them) and a 1 random item peice from the warfront, every roughly two weeks when it rotates.
Everything else is still around the same item level as I currently have.
And guess what? repeated items happen, alot more than you think.
Some people win the lottery, sure, but alot of people don’t.
People who grind daily at quests some people -cant even be bothered to do and instead complain about how unfair it is they have to do world quests to get pathfinder- put in the time just like everyone else does.
So what if their not raiding? So what if their not doing Diablo Rift dungeons?
They still put in their time, and their time deserves to be rewarded. Sometimes they’ll get lucky and strike all lucky 7’s and get a nice item titan forged, congrats to them.
What exactly are they hurting? Your personal ego? Sorry, really don’t care about that.
I’m not sure why you’re argument seems to be about my ego. I’ve mentioned several times I don’t care if casuals or whoever can get decent gear from world content. I care that the world content is extremely easy to the point that you can afk the content if you want to and still win. It doesn’t matter to me that people can get 390 ilvl gear, it matters that the content itself is unengaging. That’s my point. Maybe you like the way WQs/warfronts are and that’s totally fine, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Titanforging is a completely different issue that I think needs to just be removed from the game and replaced with a system that allows people to set goals and obtain gear that way as opposed to praying for an upgrade. However the thread isn’t about this so I won’t get into TF.
world content is not afkable, unless you have someone dragging you around doing stuff for you.
Warfronts your likely to get kicked if you try to afk. (Heck, your likely to attempt to be kicked, if your not playing the way other people want you to, been threatened to be kicked in Darkshore, for gathering iron once.)
Plenty of people in LFR call out afkers an kick them non-stop.
(People will literally call you out if you afk, or screw something up)
Just because someone can be a terrible human being and get away with it once in a while for “Free Stuff” doesn’t mean that’s how people gear normally.
As for the ego comment, that wasn’t me trying to make the argument about your ego.
The only time I mentioned an ego, was me asking at the very end of my post, who does this actually effect? The only thing I could think of was someone’s bruised ego, that someone got a nice thing, but didn’t have to play the game the way -they- played to get it, and therefore are upset.
Honestly, none of your points stick at all.
1 Like
Yep. And it’s caused some severe ilvl inflation
LOL wut? How is doing WQs at all equitable to doing a Heroic Raid Boss or running a Mythic Plus?
The time it takes to do WQ’s is the challenge? How about the hours it takes to Raid or the time it takes to do a M+ key? This has to be a joke post.
1 Like
Heroic raid gear is pretty much ‘second best’ until you factor in titanforging, so.